Beginning of the Universe

Casey said:
This is like trying to reason with an eighty year old man, or a 5 year old child. No matter what the facts are, they will never concede and change their mind. So whats the point? Let them believe their religion. In a hundred years, i bet religion will almost die out. At least in the US. I wish an actual scientist was here, so they could blow all this creation crap outta the water. There is NO debate among most scientists about evolution. This is just politically motivated, religious dogma.

Religion fuels the support for Prez Bush. All his religious references and open religious crusades make people think he's sent by god. I heard a Bushie say to the Prez, "this is the 1st time I've felt like GOD is in the White House" and the crowd erupted in a standing appluase. How can you debate someone who thinks they are on god's side and your not? You cant win with that kind of stubborness. You cant compete with god, or what they think is god. Just look at LongTom's answer to #4 right above me. "You let God do it". Wow tom thats great for fantasy land, but this is real life. Hey god, I just got fired, can you get me a new job? Thanks, your the best god.

Oh and just curious, Sephin, how old are you and what part of the country do you come from?
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You know everything you just said about Christians can be applied to you as well, so quit acting so fucking 'holier than thou' (pun intended). I don't know why you jackasses think that just because you are faithless that you are some kind of elightened genius and Christians live in the dark ages. The plain and simple truth is science has no better facts to prove where we come from tha Christians or any other religion. What's the difference in your theories and our theologies? Neither are provable. I don't understand why you are so damned hell-bent (another pun) on writing off Christians as idiots.

AC, I have always appreciated your posts here, but I am sick of your pretension in this post. It's one thing to tell us what you believe; it's another to make us out as stupid for what we believe. You see things in one light we see them differently, obviously, so why the hell do you insist on acting better than me (yes, I am starting to take this personally)?

And, no, there's not much debate on the evolution theory in the scientific community-- not because it's accepted as fact, but because scientiets are all scurrying around trying to be the first to actually come up with some credible evidence to prove it... so they can get their name in print right beside Charles Darwin of all people. And because they don't believe in God (they're too "smart" for that) and evolution is the best explanation theory they have.

Yeah, science is great if it actually prove something, but science hasn't proven shit as far as explaining creation, so that just makes these theories exercises of faith in their own right.

I am sick of this shit. I am gonna back to pulling on my dick and you all can go to hell. Literally if you choose. I know you all are gonna have some snide, yet super-intelligent comment to make about but I don't give a fuck anymore because your posts are a waste of my time.
 
Texan said:
You know everything you just said about Christians can be applied to you as well, so quit acting so fucking 'holier than thou' (pun intended). I don't know why you jackasses think that just because you are faithless that you are some kind of elightened genius and Christians live in the dark ages. The plain and simple truth is science has no better facts to prove where we come from tha Christians or any other religion. What's the difference in your theories and our theologies? Neither are provable. I don't understand why you are so damned hell-bent (another pun) on writing off Christians as idiots.

AC, I have always appreciated your posts here, but I am sick of your pretension in this post. It's one thing to tell us what you believe; it's another to make us out as stupid for what we believe. You see things in one light we see them differently, obviously, so why the hell do you insist on acting better than me (yes, I am starting to take this personally)?

And, no, there's not much debate on the evolution theory in the scientific community-- not because it's accepted as fact, but because scientiets are all scurrying around trying to be the first to actually come up with some credible evidence to prove it... so they can get their name in print right beside Charles Darwin of all people. And because they don't believe in God (they're too "smart" for that) and evolution is the best explanation theory they have.

Yeah, science is great if it actually prove something, but science hasn't proven shit as far as explaining creation, so that just makes these theories exercises of faith in their own right.

I am sick of this shit. I am gonna back to pulling on my dick and you all can go to hell. Literally if you choose. I know you all are gonna have some snide, yet super-intelligent comment to make about but I don't give a fuck anymore because your posts are a waste of my time.
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:O...

This is my last post in this thread, I will sit back and watch. I may pull out my umbrella incase things get messy.
 
AncientChina said:
Another fact that needs to be stated.

A pro-christian started this thread and this debate, to even speak of being able to explain the universe and the bible itself is going to get a debate going by opposing forces. It was not simply Christians being disrespected, you start a debate on ideology and Christianity, if you try to force feed us irrelevent information then expect a debate because you know it's going to occur.

As for some of your post Texan, I don't have a super intelligent snide comment, but I do wonder why you are telling us to go to hell, it seems a little overly done. We are having a debate it's not supposed to be a emotional release of some kind. What is it that we are saying is supposed to be insulting to you? ?:(
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Alright AC, I said I was done here, but out of respect for you I'm posting in this thread again only to say...

You are right in that this tread was a BAD idea and yes it was started by a Christian. I accept your apology, but many of your comments I interpreted as replies to sephin with broad implications to all Christians... comments like offering Kit-Kats to Ethiopians if they change their religion are uncalled for. Has it been done? Probably so, sad to say? Did Mendel cut up Jews for the sake of science? Yep. Does that make all scientists bad? No.

A lot of your comments were followed by laughing smilies, which I found distatseful. As for what Sephin or any other Christian said that was an inflamatory attack on you-- well, that is not right either.

Yeah, the 'go to hell' comment was harsh, but like I said, I took a lot of the things said here personally-- they went outside the ring of scholarly debate, definitely beyond friendly debate, in my opinion, and I took your comments the most personally because I have been reading your posts and interacting with you here for long enough to know that your comments are generally logical, pointed and exacting. Again, apology accepted, but I don't care to read about how stupid people are anymore-- scientists or Christians.
 
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AncientChina said:
While revisiting my posts I agree, and I do apolgize again on that point. My post should have been much more clearer and well thought out, and I do feel that I did go a few points below my usual respectability in some of my replies and in my use of emoticons. For that I will apologize for and I am sorry that I lost a bit of your respect, and possible forever.

My kit-kat comment was my rebuttal to Sephin making the claim that all people need to hear the word of God, and God has thus instructed man to tell others, and I myself took offense to the fact that one religion would deem itself as the upmost importance to then push its views on those that know nothing of Jesus and have their own religion. The Kit Kat story was an attempt at a bit of comedy that may have fallen flat with some. I was not trying to say that all Christians were to do that, but I failed to make my conclusion clear, so yes that was my fault. My laughing smiles were not jeers at the opposing party, but general laughing at the situation, but again I see your point and you are correct on that assumption.

I have learned these debates often bring forward very little, in terms of agreement. I still agree with my points, but my execution (way I presented them) of those in this thread could have been much better in manner were simply executed poorly. I apologize for that, I see flaws in my execution here also, it was a personal forum posting low point for myself.

I will quietly step out of this debate. :) I appreciate the insight Texan, keeps me more aware of my actions and mindset.
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Aww shit AC... now I feel bad. I probably misinterpreted your posts and jumped the gun a little. I apologize as as well, and I appreciate your contriteness. I hope all mutual respect remains intact. I should have kept my mouth shut and let it go. Anyway, I'm gonna leave this alone, as well...
 
Texan said:
Yeah, science is great if it actually prove something, but science hasn't proven shit as far as explaining creation, so that just makes these theories exercises of faith in their own right.
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Did you know that the 'moon goes around the earth' is also a theory. You are so ignorant on this subject, that you dont even know what "scientific theory" is.

I might not be so blunt about it, but you DID just tell me to go to hell, aka 'burn in the worst place in the world for all eternity'. Quite harsh, dont you think? Lucky for me it dosnt exist.

No point in even argueing w/ people who cant even consider sound arguments b/c of their prior notions, so whats the point. Sephin still wont tell me how old and what state he's from. Texan is obviously from Texas, so I can understand why he dosnt believe in evolution.
 
I should know better than to get into something that is nothing more than a pissing contest. I'm not usually that crass but it seems to be the case. Their is/was a film out that shows a human foot print in a dino print cut a part.
Which shows compaction from both being made at the same time (in mud). the fossil records fit the great flood better than billions of years, at least to me.
Remember mount staint Helen's? made a Minny Grand cannon in 20 mins.
Please explain to me how trees have been fossilized standing up-rite though million or billions of years if you can.
 
one more thought since mosquitoes have been around by your belief for millions of years are they your gods? Since they haven't seen the need to evolve they must be a Superior form of life.
 
Hmmmm, got out of hand there for a bit, huh?

Casey,

I am a scientist. Couple of BS degrees. I know a bunch of scientists from all over the world. For the most part, they are all either Jews, Christians, or Muslims. There are a few agnostics, but not too many.

It seems many folks here believe there are either scientists or creationists, and never the twain shall meet. That is simply wrong. At this point in time, there are so many things that science cannot, or has not explained. There are also things that the Bible does not explain, usually because it does not have to. Not the purpose.

Science and the Bible are not at cross purposes. Science does what it does, trying to answer questions with available evidence. For many years, there were guys trying to disprove the Bible, but they failed. Now it seems most scientists are honestly trying to find answers to questions. Period.

I would recommend reading up on the most recent scientific evidence of the beginnings of man. As I said in that paper, very few facts, according to archeology, of the Bible, are contradicted going back to the creation story. If you examine the recent evidence, it is beginning to look like creation is a possibility, according to science. But even if science conclusively proved creation, many still would not believe. That is OK too. In fact, the Bible predicts the degree of unbelievers.

I guess most guys did not read the passages about evolution theory and where it stands now. There are as many theories, and subtheories about evolution as there are researchers. But one thing I can say for sure after reading the comments above; most of you do not understand where the facts concerning evolution have lead scientists. Gradualism is dead. Natural selection as a method by which evolution occurs is dead. Period. Micro evolution is a fact, but it does not lead to evolutionary change. This is not my opinion. This is the conclusion of the men and women in the field, many of whom I quoted.

The biggest problem that I see comes in the disemination of all of this information. The thoughts and conclusions of most scientists today simply do not get 'out there' in a form where most lay folk can understand it. The work in mtDNA is fascinating. It is also ground breaking stuff. Hopefully, within the next few years, the data can be presented in an easy to understand manner, and all will be enlightened.

In the paper above, I had one real goal. To show that science and creationism can and do coexist. One does not preclude the other. So far, the evidence proves this is true. There has been nothing, that I know of, produced by science, that disproves the writings within the Bible. If you know of something, I will surely look at it.

On another note, it really bothers me when people of faith become antagonistic to people who do not believe. That is counter to the teachings of the Bible. You have to let it go. Many folks just will not believe no matter what. It is not the job of others to castigate or judge them. They must have the free will to decide for themselves.

I have many agnostic friends. I love them just the same as any other friends. I wish the best for them and all of you. Further, I will tell you right now: I am a sinner, and am not a better person than anyone else here. That is a fact I am sure of.

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AncientChina said:
Well if you read longtom's post they found a human footprint within a Dinosaur's footprint. So that means that humans and Dinosaurs were around at the same time, right guys? :s I mean after hearing that "fact" we should all believe that Dinosaurs and humans were around at the same time right, I mean it's a "fact". :D I guess that is a good creationism way to make an excuse wait I mean "explain" Dinosaurs history timeline ROFLMAO. :D

They were cool looking, my favorites were the Raptors, KICK ASS! :D
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Yeah, this is another beleif they tried to shove down our throats at camp, when some kid asked "I thought dinosaurs were around before people"......This woman behind me said "No, NO, Scientists found a human foot in a dinosaurs mouth"
Like it ate it for dinner......I laughed in her face, at how absurd this sounded, from a 30 year old to a 12 year old......
 
sephin said:
BUT if you consider the validity and complete perfection of the Bible, I find it perfect proof.

and if anyone wants to claim something as absolutely 100% correct, they will shoot it down without going any further. They wont look into it. They wont hear evidence for it.

They are the epitome of the stubborn hypocrite. ;)
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Look real hard at what you just said my boy.....As for AC's defence mechanism of laughing at what you say, 70% of your posts start with a LOL or a yawn - insight



ANd Texan, this is the second time you turned a good debate into an "EMOTION FEST", ohh oooohhh, their trying to Slander Christianity.....No man, we're just having an argument, make some good points instead of getting all hot-headed and telling all us non christians to go to hell.....I know you guys settled this but I just dont want to see it again in a couple pages my Penis Enlargement brother :)

As for me thats it, Im getting the hell outta Dodge
 
Okay, this is going to stir up all kinds of anger, but one thing I see repeated in the 'pro-creationism' posts is fairly basic lack of understanding about evolutionary theory. I'm nbot calling anybody stupid; it takes a fair degree of scientific literacy to have a full grasp of the principles.

That being said, take both sephin and longtim's comments about evolution and some kind of fascination with 'complciation' and 'superiority' and such. Evolution doesn't really classify or rank anything in this manner. Cockroaches have remained basically unchanged evolutionarily for hundreds of millions of years because they're current incarnation is extremely resiliant and successful to environmental stress. They're already at a very high and versatile adaptation level. Ditto for alligators. Evolution only occurrs as a response to environmental factors which select for favorable traits - altering and splitting species over very long periods of time. It is not an inborn function of life - it happens because of the environment in which life exists. There is no pre-programmed evolutionary factor except for females selecting fo the most desirable traits in males that they can get, facilitating the fitness of their offspring and favoring certain traits.

Another example of these misconceptions I believe can be found in bib's paper and is hinted at through the statements of others, where the size and complication of genetic code is seen as some kind of indicator of 'advanced' evolutionary status. Some of you might be interested to know that there are tiny once-celled bacteria that have a genetic code vastly longer than human beings. Likewise there are other more biologically complicated animals with short codes and simpler creatures with vast genomes. The majority of all DNA is useless or 'junk' DNA. The nature of the molecules and reproduction methods often compiles millions of useless codons that are essentially useless or static information.

It just seems to me that some of the creation crowd can't seperate evolution from 'superiority' and 'complication' in their minds. Yes we had primate ancestors - but they're not around anymore. Why? It was millions of years ago. We aren't related to chimpanzees in some kind of direct 'vertical' style model like I think many of you are imagining. If anything our relationship to a chimp is that of a genetic cousin, meaning at one point we did have a common ancestor. This is further supported by the fact that I mentioned previously - our DNA is 98.5% identical to a chimp's. Considering we're talking about information that I would think be equivilant to thousands of gigs of data, wouldn't you creationists say the odds are a bit low this is by accident?

The arguments made for creationism here basically use a strategy of using numerically convuluted attacks on certain dating techniques or contested chemical principles. Or in Bib's case, an extensive quoting of scripture portrayed in a was as to suggest that the men who authored the bible had some pre-knowledge of our recent theories about cosmology and the Earth's geological history. No matter what teh strategy, they all hang on minor points are revolve around rhetorically limited sub-arguments, while entirely dodging the 'big-picture' style serious errors with their concepts - such as the one I introduced in the previous paragraph. Once again, I'm not calling anybody dumb for being a Christian, and I'm sure that many of the most intelligent people of all time had a degree of faith in a higher power. What I will say is that the anti-evolution and fundamentalist bible supporters seems to have a very, very poor grasp of science and any arguments based upon it.

Like I said before - Religion has to try and fit all things within it's parameters. If everything we know fits neatly into the bible because it's perfect then why do you even have to argue? The answer is because you must change, reinterpret, or outright deny things that don't fit - because there are many, so many things, that simply do not.
 
Swank,

Could you please expound on what you think I said? I did not understand what you meant.

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Try re-reading it Bib, its not hard to understand. But first you have to step back from your pre-conceived notions. Otherwise it will go in one ear and out the other.

Evolution is about Natural Selection. Not chance, or a book, or god.
 
Casey,

If you read what I wrote above, I have no preconceived notions. As a scientist, I look at the evidence to try and form theories, then try to prove the theories in a repeatable manner. If I can, I arrive at a conclusion.

In the matter of evolution vs creationism, I have concluded that, at this time, creationism is much more believable. That is my opinion, not fact.

>Evolution is about Natural Selection. Not chance, or a book, or god.<

I am sorry, but on this matter, you are wrong. You are wrong because the leading scientist in the various concerned fields have come to the conclusion that natural selection has little if anything to do with macro-evolution. I provided many quotes from the leading scientists. You may do your own web search, and determine for yourself.

However, there are many other sub-theories of evolution which are being examined at this time. Some may have promise. But gradualism is not one of them.

I was addressing Swank, concerning his comments directed at me, but perhaps you can answer. I was referring to:

"Or in Bib's case, an extensive quoting of scripture portrayed in a was as to suggest that the men who authored the bible had some pre-knowledge of our recent theories about cosmology and the Earth's geological history."

and

"Another example of these misconceptions I believe can be found in bib's paper and is hinted at through the statements of others, where the size and complication of genetic code is seen as some kind of indicator of 'advanced' evolutionary status."

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If this image doesn't prove evolution, I don't know what does. Might seem a bit disrespectful for me to post this image, but I couldn't resist. ^_^ as far as creationism vs evolution goes, I really honestly don't care how we came about. I do not believe in heaven or hell, neither do I refuse that there are higher powers. =)

http://febrile.org/images/bush.jpg
 
BDS said:
If this image doesn't prove evolution, I don't know what does. Might seem a bit disrespectful for me to post this image, but I couldn't resist. ^_^ as far as creationism vs evolution goes, I really honestly don't care how we came about. I do not believe in heaven or hell, neither do I refuse that there are higher powers. =)

http://febrile.org/images/bush.jpg
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lol lol lol

That was some funny shit, man! rofl
I wonder if that quote from Nostradamus was real, or did someone make it up? Either way, it was pin-point accurate.
 
Hah lol, no, the quote by Nostradamus isn't real, at least I don't think so. Just some internet wise guy humour. ^_^
 
Ah, dammit, forgot about this debate. Coming shortly. You been reading up on how evolution actually works sephin? It's useful to know even if you think it's a crock . . .
 
ladylove said:
I love discussions like these.
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Don't we all! rofl Especially when they degenerate to the point of people going at each other's throats and desperately trying to gain support for their beliefs. That's the thing about debates of this nature: there will never be a winning side or a losing side. It's all one dragged out pointless bickering session which will just leave people with a bitter taste in their mouth and a handful of new ''enemies''. It's funny... if you are an intelligent person (like most people who have partaken in this debate) and you REALLY believe your point of view to represent the absolute and undeniable truth, you can easily make it sound like it really is, just by presenting long-winded and complex interpretations of old arguments and questionable facts. I see a lot of that happening here. Both sides are mind-fucking the opposing side to their best ability. Well, you guys do know how to argue effectively. :P
 
If you only knew how ironic that statement was.

Religious people think there's no point in arguing with you also. For the exact same reasons, I'm sure. Don't think you are somehow more intelligent than us because you aren't religious. Choice of religion (or none) has nothing to do with how "smart" somebody is.
 
I personally feel that the universe had to be created.

The thing that gets me about the "big bang theory" is that it does not do a good job of explaining of what created the bang. Not so much what caused it, but how the things that caused it came to be. Something always has to have a beginning.

If you study physics and chemistry, you see that there are laws that everything is bound to.

Who knows? Maybe this is some mega computer experiment and God is just a great programmer? lol
 
As a nihilist I don't believe that humans, or the world for that matter has a specific purpose. A god figure is highly unlikely, and if he did exist, he's either be dead, powerless or a sadist. Think about it.
 
AcesHigh said:
As a nihilist I don't believe that humans, or the world for that matter has a specific purpose. A god figure is highly unlikely, and if he did exist, he's either be dead, powerless or a sadist. Think about it.
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As a nihilist I don't see why you revived this thread. The world's going to die, let this thread die too.

You're pushing it to try to get good cosmological talk on a Penis Enlargement board. I don't think you're interested in it though.
 
This is a very deep issue as we can all probably agree. A question we all wonder ... how did the universe begin ... how did it all start? I'm not religious but I have my beliefs based on my own life experiences and what I think ... to me their is an afterlife and I alse belive in reincarnation, when one life dies another is born albeit in another body which could be another form of living creature. No proof OBVIOUSLY hahaha but my beliefs ... the spirits of everything living is recycled. I also belive in a god but I dont know what type ... just someone ... I just feel something is on the otherside ... seen ghosts and even sensed demons in the past [Mad it sounds]. The big bang could have been started by the very 'thing' religion started to base itself upon ... the ONE GOD ... the god of EVERYTHING in all space ... maybe we are all in a Matrix? who knows ... I sound mad maybe but I aint mad, or on anysubstance ... no one knows for sure how we came to be what we are and how the big bang started .. but it MAKES YOU WONDER ........ all these religions to me are not needed, we have one 'god' ... that is for all the universe ... this is how I see it.
 
Wow, I haven't been here in quite some time. But I want to throw my 2 cents worth in. There's more than a few things people have said that I take issue with in this thread, but I'll just point out a few.


derringer57;105632 said:
It takes more faith to believe there wasn't/is intelligent design, than it does to believer there was/is.
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Well, I don't quite know about that one. Evolution is proven; it does happen. Now I'm in no way saying Intelliegent design is totally false; I'm saying Creationism is, as it's prime mover is a supernatural diety that cannot be observed and is outside of nature; therefore is is simply religious dogma.



There has yet to be anyone who has disproven something the Bible has said.
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Hahaha. Surely you aren't serious man? Tell me, when is the last time a snake talked? A donkey? The bible strongly implies that the earth is flat- that is outright false. Revelation states that heaven is 1500 square miles, as if it is an actual place. Can I mapquest.com it?

In all seriousness, the bible was always written and penned by human limbs and subject to their bias. But I suppose anything I say here will have little to no affect on the believer; as if a belief is held on faith, no amount of observable evidence to the contrary can shake it, and that is scary.
 
Well actually there are verses that can be taken that the belief was the earth was round. My views are I no longer believe in the God of the Bible because I don't believe the bible is so infallible. But I do believe in a higher power, sometimes I jokingly think aliens. There's too many exacts in this world. Any closer to the sun we would die, any further away we would die. Water creates surface tension and trees use this to feed the leaves at its very top, and the list can go on and on. The universe is so vast.

I believe in evolution but not so much like most scientist. I believe over generations a species can change color but I don't believe a dog will transform into a bird or something. Many of the so called missing links were proven to be hoaxes.

Has anyone read any of Hawkins theories about the universe shrinking and expanding?
 
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