Creatine cycleing

I just read some information here

http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/creatine/loading-creatine-use.htm about creatine loading and maintanence, that its best NOT to take creatine all the time because any results from it will be lost as the body gets used to it.

Week 1 they say is the loading phase where 20G per day is took [4 servings]
Week 2 to 4 is the maintanence phase and is 10g per day
Week 5-8 is no creatine

I have the Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL which is better than the standard stuff.

What do you guys think about this advice on the cycleing phase? and what would one do after week 8? I presume that it would start again from week 1?

I prefer mini-cycles. I don't know what the dosage from CEE is, but for creatine monohydrate, I experienced good results with this:

2 days: 20-30 grams daily
2 days: 0 grams daily

-OR-

3 days: 20-30 grams daily
4 days: 0 grams daily

This works great, as I gained about 10 pounds within one month. You can usually find creatine monohydrate pretty cheap, so the large dosage should be no problem. I have never used CEE, so I can't make any suggestions about dosages or cycling.

Goldmember, I would appriciate your expertise on my subject here too...

I just finished my first tub of NO-Xplode (1 month) with good results. I have gained muscle, as well as increased my total strength on most excercises. I normally take Cell-Tech right after a workout too, and I finished my month supply of that as well.

Now should I cycle off the NO-Xplode and Cell-Tech for a month? Or should I just keep going? NO-Xplode has creatine in it, as does the Cell-Tech. I only take the Cell-Tech on lifting days (3 a week, and its 10g), and the NO-Xplode every day, but usually only 1/3 a dose on non training days.

I need to hit up GNC this week to get the 20 percent off, so I'm wondering if I should buy more, or cycle off and just go with protein shakes and stuff all this month. Thanks bud!

(PS. I hear that if you quit taking the NO-Xplode, you feel significantly weaker , than you do when your on it, don't know the truth behind this tho.)

Thanks for that Goldmember. Also found more info here http://www.trulyhuge.com/creatinemonohydrateL07.html where they have this cycle ........

WEEK # DAILY DOSAGE (grams)
1 10
2 20
3 30
4 40
5 40
6 30
7 20
8 10

Apparently after 4 weeks the guy noticed 7 pounds increase in bodyweight.

You have seen better with 10 punds within the 4 weeks.

I dont see their being much difference in the CEE dosage and the reguler creatine dosage as the CEE is just with the added ester to get into the muscle better.


Another cycle plan is here http://www.musclesurf.com/adcreatcycsc.html

week 1: load (20 g / day)
week 2-4 : maintenance (10 g / day)
week 5: load (20 g / day)
week 6-8: OFF
Repeat Cycle.

Also some interesting info on creatine here http://www.thinkmuscle.com/ARTICLES/haycock/research-update-013.htm including creatine cycleing and that it takes at least 4 weeks rest from creatine supplementation for levels in the body to return to normal and 3 months constant use isnt recommended.

If anyone else has feedback/comments on creatine cycle/loading/maintanence than please do say.

Also RazedNegative, would be better if you made a seperate thread with that question in it instead of asking within this thread as its off topic....thank you.

goldmember said:

I prefer mini-cycles. I don't know what the dosage from CEE is, but for creatine monohydrate, I experienced good results with this:

2 days: 20-30 grams daily
2 days: 0 grams daily

-OR-

3 days: 20-30 grams daily
4 days: 0 grams daily

This works great, as I gained about 10 pounds within one month. You can usually find creatine monohydrate pretty cheap, so the large dosage should be no problem. I have never used CEE, so I can't make any suggestions about dosages or cycling.

Click to expand...

Forgot to ask how did you distribute the dosage during the day? i.e 4 dosages of 5 grams for the 20 grams daily and when did you take them during the day.

cheers

Ah, I'm sorry that you thought it was off topic Red, I wasnt trying to hijack, I was just also curious about the cycling, as both of those products I was mentioning are high in creatine. I guess I was more wondering along the lines of is it still a good idea to cycle supplements CONTAINING creatine, and not just creatine in bulk.

Again, sorry bud.

RazedNegative said:

Ah, I'm sorry that you thought it was off topic Red, I wasnt trying to hijack, I was just also curious about the cycling, as both of those products I was mentioning are high in creatine. I guess I was more wondering along the lines of is it still a good idea to cycle supplements CONTAINING creatine, and not just creatine in bulk.

Again, sorry bud.

Click to expand...

No I'm sorry mate ... I didnt realise that what you wanted help on was infact a product high in creatine ... so ignore what I said, your question was RIGHT where you posted it. My apologies.

RazedNegative said:

Goldmember, I would appriciate your expertise on my subject here too...

I just finished my first tub of NO-Xplode (1 month) with good results. I have gained muscle, as well as increased my total strength on most excercises. I normally take Cell-Tech right after a workout too, and I finished my month supply of that as well.

Now should I cycle off the NO-Xplode and Cell-Tech for a month? Or should I just keep going? NO-Xplode has creatine in it, as does the Cell-Tech. I only take the Cell-Tech on lifting days (3 a week, and its 10g), and the NO-Xplode every day, but usually only 1/3 a dose on non training days.

I need to hit up GNC this week to get the 20 percent off, so I'm wondering if I should buy more, or cycle off and just go with protein shakes and stuff all this month. Thanks bud!

(PS. I hear that if you quit taking the NO-Xplode, you feel significantly weaker , than you do when your on it, don't know the truth behind this tho.)

Click to expand...

My experience with creatine is that two month cycles followed by a month off gives pretty good results, although I must say I lose much of the weight I gain when I cycle off for one month. When I tried mini-cycling, I kept the weight the entire length of the cycle (I think about six months before I stopped) and actually kept gaining in small increments the entire time. By the end of the six months, I believe I packed on 20 pounds and it was fairly lean. I believe I lost three to five pounds after a few weeks of stopping the creatine. You can see why this type of cycle is beneficial.

The theory behind micro-cycling is that creatine receptors down-regulate very quickly (about three days of supplementation). On the positive side, they also up-regulate very quickly after discontinuing creatine supplementation (about two or three days, depending on how much you are using). If you choose to listen to this data (which I am not 100% certain has been proven in studies) then you will see why the micro-cycling that I outlined in a previous post would be helpful.

Personally, I wouldn't take anything that is a cocktail of creatine simply because they are overpriced. You can make an awesome creatine cocktail for much less by simply taking 50 grams of dextrose with each 10 grams of creatine monohydrate, about 5 grams of ribose, 500 mg of phosphate salts, and 15 grams of glycerol. You can find these fairly cheap at:

www.supplementdirect.com
www.bodybuilding.com
www.bulknutrition.com

You can find these supplements and combine them for a fraction of the cost of what you buy at GNC.

I'm glad you're actually researching your supplements unlike people who treat their body like some invincible machine. As far as taking one month for creatine receptors to up-regulate, your source says different than what mine does. My source (which I cannot locate right now) says that up-regulation occurs pretty quickly, although it may be dependant upon how long the body is given the high doses of creatine. When you say "recover", I'm not sure if this means "when the body begins to produce endogenous creatine at a normal rate again" or "upregulation of creatine receptors". Endogenous production wouldn't matter as much on mini-cycles, whereas on a long-term cycle of everyday intake it would matter significantly more.

REDZULU2003 said:

Thanks for that Goldmember. Also found more info here http://www.trulyhuge.com/creatinemonohydrateL07.html where they have this cycle ........

WEEK # DAILY DOSAGE (grams)
1 10
2 20
3 30
4 40
5 40
6 30
7 20
8 10

Apparently after 4 weeks the guy noticed 7 pounds increase in bodyweight.

You have seen better with 10 punds within the 4 weeks.

I dont see their being much difference in the CEE dosage and the reguler creatine dosage as the CEE is just with the added ester to get into the muscle better.


Another cycle plan is here http://www.musclesurf.com/adcreatcycsc.html

week 1: load (20 g / day)
week 2-4 : maintenance (10 g / day)
week 5: load (20 g / day)
week 6-8: OFF
Repeat Cycle.

Also some interesting info on creatine here http://www.thinkmuscle.com/ARTICLES/haycock/research-update-013.htm including creatine cycleing and that it takes at least 4 weeks rest from creatine supplementation for levels in the body to return to normal and 3 months constant use isnt recommended.

If anyone else has feedback/comments on creatine cycle/loading/maintanence than please do say.

Also RazedNegative, would be better if you made a seperate thread with that question in it instead of asking within this thread as its off topic....thank you.

Click to expand...

REDZULU2003 said:

Forgot to ask how did you distribute the dosage during the day? i.e 4 dosages of 5 grams for the 20 grams daily and when did you take them during the day.

cheers

Click to expand...

I usually took 10 gram dosages. I tried to get in three dosages per day, but work sometimes constrained me to two. The reason work limited me is because you should try to take creatine on an empty stomach, and consume the sugars about 30 minutes after consuming the creatine. That is because blood-creatine levels usually peak 30-60 minutes after consumption, whereas insulin levels peak very shortly after consuming sugars (for dextrose, somewhere between 20-30 minutes). Then I would eat a meal about an hour after this whole ordeal. You can see why getting multiple dosages per day would be difficult with this (highly effective however) method.

I've read that creatine doesn't have to be cycled, that it's just a ploy by supp companies to sell more creatine (ie, you take a ton during the loading phase). This makes sense to me. Creatine is not a drug, it is a nutrient of sorts. You don't cycle protein intake, why would you cycle creatine intake?

Any insight?

9cyclops9 said:

I've read that creatine doesn't have to be cycled, that it's just a ploy by supp companies to sell more creatine (ie, you take a ton during the loading phase). This makes sense to me. Creatine is not a drug, it is a nutrient of sorts. You don't cycle protein intake, why would you cycle creatine intake?

Any insight?

Click to expand...

This is correct.
Creatine is a nutrient, just like protein/carbs/fat.

There is no endrogenous creatine. Creatine is not produced by the body, it is simply absorbed from the food we eat (particularly red meat).
Loading is not neccesary and once the muscles are saturated, in only takes about 3g EOD to keep them saturated.
Mini cycling is a waste of money as;
1. After one or two cycle, the muscles are saturated and the excess will be excreted from the body
2. It takes appromately 30 days for creatine levels to come back down to baseline after saturation of the muscles has occured.

Remember people, creatine is not a steroid, so dont expect huge over night gains. Creatine supplementation simply allows the muscles to draw on the higher stores of creatine for the production of ATP (an anerobic fuel source used during intense lifting), to keep the muscles firing longer once fatigued.
It will allow you to lift slightly more, allowing you to overload the muscles more, hence allowing you to build more muscle over time.

But it is no wonder drug, and if you eat a LOT of red meat, it may be argued that even this proven supp is not required.

Goldmember, if one doesnt have dextrose to consume after the creatine than what would be best to consume it with? something like grape fruit juice or blackcurrent juice?

I'm glad you have gone into more detail about this cycleing ... from what you've said on your experience I will be doing the mini cycles.

Now for cyclops and Matt. I have heard that also, that some companys will tell you to cycle to make more profit BUT I did see a source [cant locate it now] that even if you consume the RDA for creatine which is something like 5g than you will actually still save money if you do the cycleing on 20g than 10g and with the resting period ... belive it or not, I will find the source with the mathamatical breakdown.

It HAS NOT BEEN proven that creatine cycleing is more effective than takeing the stiff normally .... thats a fact. Not enough studies have been done BUT many users who do cycle have reported better gains while using the creatine supplement cycleing than if they didnt cycle it as the results dont last with normal usage, so cycleing could be beneficial.

From everything I've read and talked to many trainers, cycleing is no worse than using the stuff normally ... meaning it wont do your body anyharm or anything else.

If you take the massive dosage at first in the cycle i.e 20-30g than you might get the SHITS and in which case revert to this cycle


WEEK # DAILY DOSAGE (grams)
1 10
2 20
3 30
4 40
5 40
6 30
7 20
8 10

The above was made for those who get bad stomach pains from the creatine high dosage cycle.

Finally, we all know that creatine isnt a steroid ... it isnt a magic drug blah blah blah I've done my research. Creatine is however VERY USEFUL supplement and many athletes and sports people use it reguler to get them into peak condition .... when used alongside other supplements such as protein and L-Glutamine than it is very powerful and with a good routine that is followed with dedication than only good results can come fourth.

Like I said, this whol cycle, loading and maintanence phase with creatine has never been proven to work better than using the stuff in the normal dosage ... but many users have reported better gains with cycles and inthe long run it can be cheaper.

Matt said:

This is correct.
Creatine is a nutrient, just like protein/carbs/fat.

Click to expand...

This is wrong. Vegetarians who consume ZERO creatine can get by just fine. Therefore, it is not an essential nutrient.

Matt said:

There is no endrogenous creatine. Creatine is not produced by the body, it is simply absorbed from the food we eat (particularly red meat).
Loading is not neccesary and once the muscles are saturated, in only takes about 3g EOD to keep them saturated.

Click to expand...

I am not sure where you pulled this information out of...creatine is produced by the kidneys and liver governed by a negative feedback loop similar to testosterone. It is produced at a rate around 2 grams daily. You may want to check that out before you post wrong information.

Matt said:

Mini cycling is a waste of money as;
1. After one or two cycle, the muscles are saturated and the excess will be excreted from the body
2. It takes appromately 30 days for creatine levels to come back down to baseline after saturation of the muscles has occured.

Click to expand...

Again, in no way is mini-cycling crucial. I simply am relaying a method that worked better for me, and am supporting it with the theory behind it.

Matt said:

Remember people, creatine is not a steroid, so dont expect huge over night gains. Creatine supplementation simply allows the muscles to draw on the higher stores of creatine for the production of ATP (an anerobic fuel source used during intense lifting), to keep the muscles firing longer once fatigued. It will allow you to lift slightly more, allowing you to overload the muscles more, hence allowing you to build more muscle over time.

Click to expand...

You also forget to mention the cell volumizing effect creatine has. This is largely responsible for the increase in protein synthesis that comes with creatine ingestion.

Matt said:

But it is no wonder drug, and if you eat a LOT of red meat, it may be argued that even this proven supp is not required.

Click to expand...

Absolutely wrong. Red meat has about 2-3 grams of creatine per POUND. The kidneys and liver produce about 2 grams of creatine daily, so even if you did eat a pound of red meat every day (which I still suggest, it's high in arachidonic acid) you will be shutting down endogenous creatine production, and at best, you will be left with 1 gram of net creatine. (3 grams taken in minus the grams your body no longer produces). This is why small doses of creatine are minimally effective at best. Mini-cycling involves higher doses, so that may be why it works better. And for some people, like me, creatine may in fact have "wonder drug"-like effects.

goldmember said:

I prefer mini-cycles. I don't know what the dosage from CEE is, but for creatine monohydrate, I experienced good results with this:

2 days: 20-30 grams daily
2 days: 0 grams daily

-OR-

3 days: 20-30 grams daily
4 days: 0 grams daily

This works great, as I gained about 10 pounds within one month. You can usually find creatine monohydrate pretty cheap, so the large dosage should be no problem. I have never used CEE, so I can't make any suggestions about dosages or cycling.

Click to expand...

Have you not found that after so long with this mini cycle that you must have a extended break for the creatine to kick in again?

Also with your mini cycle, you take X3 10g portions ... is one of these one hour before the workout? just give me a guide when to take the stuff.

Would something like firsthing in the morning, one hour before a session and nightime be corect?

REDZULU2003 said:

Have you not found that after so long with this mini cycle that you must have a extended break for the creatine to kick in again?

Also with your mini cycle, you take X3 10g portions ... is one of these one hour before the workout? just give me a guide when to take the stuff.

Would something like firsthing in the morning, one hour before a session and nightime be corect?

Click to expand...

Good questions. I was only on the cycle for about six months, and this didn't seem to effect creatine's ability to "kick in". I mentioned that I gained 10 pounds in only a few weeks, and obviously I didn't gain 60 pounds by the time I stopped using it. I think several of those pounds were water (the ones that I lost shortly after stopping) and a few were muscle. Then, I continued to gain at a steady rate of about one pound every two weeks or something like that. Most likely, this weight was a high percentage muscle. I'm sure that the effects depreciate slightly with the longer you take it, but not as much as the two month cycles I followed before.

As far as timing, you are absolutely correct. I tried getting one dosage first thing in the morning, one serving an hour or two before working out, and maybe another later in the evening, a few hours after working out. I don't think timing has a huge effect, but I think when you have your insulin spike is important. You want to spike insulin shortly after consuming the creatine. So it would be wise to workout shortly after consuming the sugars so that they go to good use. And first thing in the morning those sugars will go to your liver and hungry muscles from the overnight fast. After your workout you muscles may still be searching for sugars. You get the point.

Yep I understand that fully ... thanks

Just read on the back of the Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL tub I have and it says you dont need a loading phase with it and you also dont need to take a sugar spike with it, unlike with normal creatine and the dosage is much smaller.

I will stick with my original plan of mini cycles like I said with the Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL as it cant do anyharm, and I read somewhere that even though it doesnt need loading and cycleing like the reguler stuff [thats a matter of opinion actually and no proof shown that its better to cycle or load but many do and see better results!] its always better to have a break now and again from it so you can get the stuff from the system in some amount ... so I will follow the normal creatine loading and cycleing mindset although useing goldmember's mini cycle plan.