I don't mean to be spamming if that is what you consider this but I just wanted to share this web site. www. bodybuilding.com is the best web site I have ever looked at to find information on any possible nutrition, workout, training, exercises, etc...... Like I said I don't know if it is legal to write this on here and I am sorry if it isn't but I just thought that it could help alot of people out with questions. They have professional trainers, bodybuilders, nutritionists, etc.... on this site and they have excellent articles and info. and forums, and even have an online store. The prices for supplements on the site is pretty much wholesale and I have never found prices lower than there. They have thousands of workout routines and show how to do body specific exercises. They have stuff on the web site for every one whether you want to bodybuild or just want to get tone and gain strength. I highly recommend the site and once again I am sorry if it is against the rules to post this. If it is legal then I would recommend making a sticky that has a link to this web site. It is a high quality and professional site and is the #1 workout website online. Hope this helps alot of people.
www.bodybuilding. com
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9cyclops9
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For BBing, it isn't really all that great. The high-reps, pump your muscles, each bodypart only once per week, train to failure, multiple pointless exercises for the same muscle, isolation BS that's mostly preached there is pretty much worthless. It's the same load of crap you'd find in any muscle mag at Borders. It's the same crap you see the majority of gym goers doing, and it's the same load of crap that those same gym goers get minimal results with. There's some decent diet info, but nothing that can't be found at better sites. The PL/Strongman section of the board is pretty good though. I post in that section regularly.
Now, maybe you can grow some muscle on the type of "lifting" routine I just trashed, but you're going to be weak as my 80 year old grandma. You want mass? Try high sets of low reps. You generally see 3 sets of 10 as a standard set/rep scheme, but try 10 sets of 3 instead. And don't go to failure, unless it's on the last rep of the last set. Eat and grow. It's like magic.
Or try 20 rep squats with your 10 rep max. Mix it with "money lifts" like deadlifts, bench press, power clean, power snatch, military press, rows, pull-ups, dips, etc. Then if you have time and energy afterwards, you can do a few sets of curls and skullcrushers. Eat and grow. Again, magic (and no creatine involved either! See, I saved you some money). Not to mention you'll be stronger than Mr. Pink Dumbbell Kickbacks over there.
Add some sprints, HIIT or Tabata-style front squats and thrusters on "off" days. Screw running on a treadmill for an hour. You'll only waste muscle that way. High-intensity cardio is better for fat loss and is much better for your cardiovascular development.
Diet? As Dr. John Berardi said, eat like a vegetarian, only add a whole lot of meat. 1-1.5 g of protein per pound of lean body mass is a must. Tons of fruits and veggies are a must. Healthy fats are a must. Fish oil caps and Udo's Choice Oil Blend are fantastic. Starchy carbs should be eaten as infrequently as possible. A fast protein (whey isolate at least, whey hydrolysate if you can handle the terrible taste) with high-GI carbs (maltodextrin and dextrose are good) an hour after your workout, and maybe a low-carb MRP with both fast and slow acting proteins to help you get your daily protein intake.
So I just gave you the secrets to becoming bigger, stronger, leaner, and all around just more hardcore/badass than any bodybuilder at your gym (unless they know what I just told you, or are chemically enhanced).
Now, maybe you can grow some muscle on the type of "lifting" routine I just trashed, but you're going to be weak as my 80 year old grandma. You want mass? Try high sets of low reps. You generally see 3 sets of 10 as a standard set/rep scheme, but try 10 sets of 3 instead. And don't go to failure, unless it's on the last rep of the last set. Eat and grow. It's like magic.
Or try 20 rep squats with your 10 rep max. Mix it with "money lifts" like deadlifts, bench press, power clean, power snatch, military press, rows, pull-ups, dips, etc. Then if you have time and energy afterwards, you can do a few sets of curls and skullcrushers. Eat and grow. Again, magic (and no creatine involved either! See, I saved you some money). Not to mention you'll be stronger than Mr. Pink Dumbbell Kickbacks over there.
Add some sprints, HIIT or Tabata-style front squats and thrusters on "off" days. Screw running on a treadmill for an hour. You'll only waste muscle that way. High-intensity cardio is better for fat loss and is much better for your cardiovascular development.
Diet? As Dr. John Berardi said, eat like a vegetarian, only add a whole lot of meat. 1-1.5 g of protein per pound of lean body mass is a must. Tons of fruits and veggies are a must. Healthy fats are a must. Fish oil caps and Udo's Choice Oil Blend are fantastic. Starchy carbs should be eaten as infrequently as possible. A fast protein (whey isolate at least, whey hydrolysate if you can handle the terrible taste) with high-GI carbs (maltodextrin and dextrose are good) an hour after your workout, and maybe a low-carb MRP with both fast and slow acting proteins to help you get your daily protein intake.
So I just gave you the secrets to becoming bigger, stronger, leaner, and all around just more hardcore/badass than any bodybuilder at your gym (unless they know what I just told you, or are chemically enhanced).
WOW 9cyclops9 That was a hell of a post! I am on track and actually talked to a few trainers. But my memory sucks SO bad I forget what to be doing as a routine. Basically I have another 15-20lbs to lose and I'm on like a 2000 cal per day routine. And I have been doing one muscle group per work out and do it every other day. For the most part 3 sets 20-25 reps of whatever I'm doing. This is to get toned up and loose the weight first, then when it comes off I can kick it and go for the target spots to bulk up at.
What do you think? ?
What do you think? ?
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ctmwm said:WOW 9cyclops9 That was a hell of a post! I am on track and actually talked to a few trainers. But my memory sucks SO bad I forget what to be doing as a routine. Basically I have another 15-20lbs to lose and I'm on like a 2000 cal per day routine. And I have been doing one muscle group per work out and do it every other day. For the most part 3 sets 20-25 reps of whatever I'm doing. This is to get toned up and loose the weight first, then when it comes off I can kick it and go for the target spots to bulk up at.
What do you think? ?
One thing to keep in mind: most personal trainers aren't the most knowledgeable in the world about training and nutrition. Some are, but even if they are, many of them tend to give out advice that your average person will stick to (not necessarily the best advice, but definitely better than nothing). It's better to do some research and see what the leading strength coaches and sports nutritionists have to say on the subject. Their advice may be harder to stick to (or you may find you love it!), but the results will convince you if you do it right.
A lot of people tend to advocate higher reps when trying to lose fat. This is fine. I personally don't do much high-rep work at any time, but this is just a personal preference and not necessarily better or worse. But by higher-rep training I mean in the 8-12 rep range. So pick a weight you can do with good form for 12-15 reps, and do 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps so you avoid failure. Again, stick with the lifts I mentioned: Squats, deadlifts, bench press, military press, rows, pull-ups, and dips. For your purposes in losing fat, these lifts have more of a metabolic effect than isolation exercises like flyes, leg extensions, curls, etc. So you're going to be burning more calories by using these lifts. Some routines you may come across may have variations of these (such as Fat to Fire which I'll recommend further down), but these are the basic lifts your program should be built around.
For cardio, do some research on HIIT and Tabata (here's a great article about Tabata: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=4757F2A3428C846A2D7D340914660D7B.hydra?id=490160 ). Or just start doing sprints. If you can't sprint off and on for 15-20 minutes, do what you can: jog/walk, run/jog, sprint/jog, etc. Do a 5 minute warmup walk or jog, then alternate 1 minute sessions of whichever two you pick. If you're used to jogging, try run/jog. The point is to increase intensity from what you're doing without going overboard and compromising your recovery. I'd recommend doing your cardio on days that you don't lift weights.
A 2000 calorie diet is probably fine, if you're making good choices. Fibrous veggies such as broccoli, turnips, lettuce, etc. and some fruits, including apples, oranges, berries, and pineapple are called "negative calorie foods." This means your body expends more energy to digest the food than the food itself provides. So the more of these you eat, the more calories you'll burn. Don't go too overboard though, because if you have too much of a calorie deficit you won't be able to recover from your workouts. Fats should make up 20-30% of your caloric intake. Stress healthy fats such as fish oil, flax oil, etc. I take a Walgreens fish oil supplement and Udo's Choice Oil Blend. This will do wonders for your health. If you're interested on the role of healthy fats in the diet, pick up "Fats That Heal, Fats That Kill" by Udo Erasmus. And get at least 1g of protein per pound of lean body mass while trying to lose fat. More is great so long as you don't exceed your daily caloric limit.
If you're wanting to torch the fat off ASAP and don't mind a pretty hardcore diet, check out the Velocity Diet:
Part I
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=354017EF0C0D0E7CF98ACEB5E9C565CD.hydra?id=546491
Part II
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=563877
This may be too intense for you (I know it is for me!). If so, T-Dawg 2.0 is another great one aimed at fat loss:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=473067
If you like what you see in those threads, check out T-Nation. Read around, there's some great info there on all aspects of lifting, from bodybuilding to powerlifting, Olympic lifting, fat loss, nutrition, etc. Start with the newbie thread and read every link in that thread that catches your interest.
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=362BD11A3855360B9B4E1D3A19528AA4.hydra?id=640350
Start with the links I gave you, and the 7 Habits of Highly Effective Nutritional Programs. Fat to Fire, a training article listed in that thread, may be perfect for you at this point. Once you're down to a satisfactory weight, I'd suggest Big Boy Basics by Chad Waterbury (it isn't in the thread, but it's a great routine). Any of the beginners' programs would be great too.
Hopefully this post didn't overwhelm you. lol Good luck with your goals, ctmwm. Happy reading!
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I never mind helping out my Penis Enlargement buddies when they ask. But don't try to read it all at once!! lol
Enjoy it, bro.
Enjoy it, bro.
The negative calorie foods is a myth,
Quote
no it's not true
This is because some of the fibre can be metabolised by the bacterial flora of the gut into a form of carb which we can absorb, therefore has a tiny nutritional value. However this cost is roughly equal to the energy cost of digesting the fibre. Add this to the minute amount of macronutrient in the celery, etc and there is a small postive energy value
sorry to dissappoint you all!
end quote
Ice cold water can be called negative calorie so to speak because the body has to bring it to body temp,it takes about 17.5 calories per 8 ounces/0.5 litre.
Quote
no it's not true
This is because some of the fibre can be metabolised by the bacterial flora of the gut into a form of carb which we can absorb, therefore has a tiny nutritional value. However this cost is roughly equal to the energy cost of digesting the fibre. Add this to the minute amount of macronutrient in the celery, etc and there is a small postive energy value
sorry to dissappoint you all!
end quote
Ice cold water can be called negative calorie so to speak because the body has to bring it to body temp,it takes about 17.5 calories per 8 ounces/0.5 litre.
9cyclops9 said:
>I wouldnt really be handing out advice like this unless you post some pictures of yourself with half decent muscle development. Where to start on this one? The reason that "BS" is the stuff thats normally preached is becasue it is the tryed and true routine for majority of people. Not everyone responds to the same thing, but Id say that routine is probably the best one there is for everyone. Sure lifting a lot of low reps and high weights is gonna put on some mass, but that can only get you so far. Multipul pointless excersices and isolation being BS? I dont think so man. Some poeple like to have what is called muscle development that only comes from isolation and hitting muscles at different angles. Im sure the majority of people that work out would rather look more developed than just be a big slab of mass.
9cyclops9 said:
>You realize your talking to normal people that just want to work out and look good don't you? The ammount of energy, mental strength, it takes in the gym and while your body is repairing for this sort of think is absurd. When you do low reps im assuming high weights for long sets, you have to be prepared to be insanely exhausted. Lifting moderate weight 10-12 reps isnt going to make you a weak 80 year old. High weights low reps will make you stronger, but once again, id like to see pictures of you with decent muscle development and a decent body fat percentage.
9cyclops9 said:
>This part doesnt even make sense? You want people to lift heavy and hard, but not eat to grow? How is someone supposed to grow on low carbs? If your lifting hard, startchy carbs should be eating as FREQUENTLY as possible. The ammount of energy your body consumes building muscle is enormous. My chiropracter knew a bodybuilder that would eat pure mayo, just to get the calories out of it to grow. Most ppoeple dont need to worry about slow acting, fast acting protein. They just need to know that they need to be consuming protein throughout the day.
Im not really trying to blast you too hard, but I dont like that you come on here and give advice like its the messiah of all lifting, when its not. Most poeple arn't going to be going hardcore, and I personally believe a lot of advice you give to them is just setting people up for failure.
Oh and I just thought Id make it clear that you cant get big and lean unless you are doing steroids. If you are bulking you are going to be a bit soft, and if you are cutting you are going to lose size. Unless you have amazing genetics, and in that case you probably dont even really need advice on working out.
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thefranchise said:
A big slab of mass and not "developed?" Check out Dave Gulledge, a natural powerlifter (for those that don't know, PLers generally train in a low rep range on big compound movements, and don't focus on specific bodyparts. They do some isolation, but it's for the purpose of strengthening the lift, not for appearance), after he went on a cutting phase (the first one is carb depleted, the second is after a carb-up):
I'm not saying you can't get big and aesthetically pleasing on the high-rep isolation routine that most people tend to use, but it isn't the most effective way to train. And if there's any type of routine that's "tried and true" for building a better body, it's a strength training regimen with proper nutrition. Any leading authority in the iron game will tell you this. Ask Dr. Ken Liestner, Bill Starr, Chad Waterbury, Christian Thibaudeau, Dan John, or any other well-respected coach (and I don't mean that guy with dreads that coaches Ronnie Coleman..."chemically enhanced" training is a whole different ball game).
See above. That isn't me, but pics of me have nothing to do with what works. The training style I talked about works. Whether you happen to use it or not has nothing to do with it, and whether I look like Arnold or not has nothing to do with it. I've only been training for a short time. However, there are pics from a few months ago here on [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words] in the BB forum, you can find them if you like. I can already tell you that you won't be very impressed, because I've only been lifting since April. But I've done a hell of a lot of research. And I managed to put on 20+ lbs and lose body fat in less than 4 months (the time between my pics). As of today I've gone from 179 lbs in April to 205 lbs today, and my body fat percentage has dropped. And I can show you a whole lot of people that have built large, aesthetic physiques by adhering to the principles I mentioned. Chad Waterbury is one. Christian Thibaudeau is another. Many Olympic lifters have killer physiques. Check out Pyrros Dimas and tell me if you have a better body than him.
As far as being "normal people that just want to lift weights and look good," who says that the training philosophy I'm talking about won't work for "normal people?" Is my way of training specifically for "abnormal people?" I don't know of a rule that says: "If you're normal and just want to look good, use isolation exercises. If you're abnormal and just want to look good and be strong, use low reps and compound lifts."
Now, you don't have to go heavy, high volume, and low reps all the time. Higher rep, lighter weight days should be scheduled in your routine to prevent overtraining. But compound movements are always more efficient than isolation movements. Sure, you can throw in some isolation stuff (I've been doing more of this recently), but your routine should be based around the basic compound lifts.
Did you not read my post? I was talking about HEALTH and growth. Eating pure mayo is terrible for your health. Large amounts of starchy carbs is terrible for your health, not to mention you'll gain fat more rapidly on a diet that's full of high-GI carbs. Sure, you'll get big, but you'll also be very unhealthy.
Maybe the slow and fast protein was a bit much, but it isn't really a whole lot to "worry about." If, like me, you get your protein powder in bulk from a custom shop like www.proteinfactory.com (which is cheaper and higher quality than most commercial products), just get a few different blends and use them at the appropriate time.
Well I don't think I've ever been labelled "hardcore" before just because I use low reps and heavy weights and eat healthily. But whatever. I'd suggest that you give strength training a try, if nothing else then you'll at least have some personal experience with it. But I'd be willing to bet that you could put on some mass and that you'd enjoy your new strength gains. It will be something your body isn't used to, and so your body will grow.
Oh, so what the hell are you doing in the gym? Why are we all wasting our time? This is a load of crap, one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Before you try to defend yourself, go back up there and look at Dave Gulledge. Check out Tommy Kono or other pre-steroid bodybuilders. Look at some Olympic gymnasts. I was a competitive gymnast for several years and competed at the national level (won 1 national championship), and I can tell you that steroid use is virtually non-existant in the gymnastics community, yet you see these guys with huge, ripped physiques.
Consider this: if what you're currently doing isn't working without steroids, then why do you believe that it works? Maybe it's time to try something different.
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prince Albert said:
Maybe I'm right and maybe you're right. I honestly haven't researched it enough to back it up. But that doesn't change the fact that we should be eating plenty of fruits and veggies.
Thanks for the water thing, I hadn't thought of that but it makes perfect sense.
WOW I didnt want to start an argument. There is more than one way to skin a cat and obviously there is a few hundred to get fit too!!! I really apprecaite all the info. Heck it will take me at least a few weeks to filter through it and take 1/4 of it in!!
I'll tell you what though I'm hooked on that dam peanut butter / chocolate Muscle Milk powder!! Dam thats good stuff! A little soy milk and ice chips and its great!! It gives you all kinds of energy and burns fat at the same time rofl YUM
I'll tell you what though I'm hooked on that dam peanut butter / chocolate Muscle Milk powder!! Dam thats good stuff! A little soy milk and ice chips and its great!! It gives you all kinds of energy and burns fat at the same time rofl YUM
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No prob.
And by the way, Dave Gulledge's cutting diet was around 4400 kcal per day. He went through phases of dropping down to 2000-2300, but only for 2 weeks at a time. He's 265 lbs in those pics (pretty much kills the idea that you can't get big and lean without roids). Here's a quote from his about his training during this period. He had a leg injury which is why his squat seems disproportionate to his bench, but still, 315 for 30 reps in the squat isn't bad! 120lbs in each hand for the DB overhead press, and a 650lb bench!
from www.midwestbarbell.com
Obviously, not everyone will train as hard as this guy (i certainly don't), but consider that this was how he trained while on a cutting diet!
And by the way, Dave Gulledge's cutting diet was around 4400 kcal per day. He went through phases of dropping down to 2000-2300, but only for 2 weeks at a time. He's 265 lbs in those pics (pretty much kills the idea that you can't get big and lean without roids). Here's a quote from his about his training during this period. He had a leg injury which is why his squat seems disproportionate to his bench, but still, 315 for 30 reps in the squat isn't bad! 120lbs in each hand for the DB overhead press, and a 650lb bench!
from www.midwestbarbell.com
Obviously, not everyone will train as hard as this guy (i certainly don't), but consider that this was how he trained while on a cutting diet!
Im sorry man but Dave Gulledge's is not natural. He's on juice, and if you fail to see or believe that then whatever. Go post about him on getbig as being a natural and see what kind of a response you get.
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I don't care what the guys at getbig think. I'm taking him at his word because I have no reason not to. He has no reason to lie about being natural.
9cyclops9 said:
Agree with thefranchise he is not natural,he has every reason to lie,drug use is a jailable offence,also i guess he competes.
You won't see a competing pro bodybuilder admiting to drug use.
Its impossible to achieve that sort of mass and conditioning natural,try doing a google search on natural bodybuilders and i would be suprised if you can find one over 13 stone contest shape.
ian duckett champion natty bodybuilder 13 years training on stage weight 11.5 stone
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prince Albert said:
It isn't "impossible." I went to the MA state strongman competition and there were several massive guys with fairly low BF who were natural. One guy was 280 lbs and he was very lean.
Anyway, here's Dave Gulledge before cutting, at 319 lbs.
http://www.midwestbarbell.com/~midwestmd/Strongman/bigdave.jpg
And I don't think you can lose weight on 4400 calories if you're juicing, of course I could be wrong. Still, even if he is on roids, there are plenty of other examples out there. For instance, Christian Thibaudeau:
http://www.t-nation.com/img/photos/315trans1.jpg
How do you no they arn't using gear,strongmen are amongst the worst abusers of gear,you really are gullible if you think these guys are natural,ive just shown you a pic of what natural at low bodyfat looks like and you still believe you can be big and lean drug free.
.You can lose weight on roids the same way as you can natural,go below maintance level.be it 5000 4000 3000 ect.
Do yourself a favour and stop reading t-nation ect its filling your head full of crap,go out and join a proper hardcore gym and then you might open your eyes to the reality of drug use,go to a natural bb show and see how little these guys weigh.
.You can lose weight on roids the same way as you can natural,go below maintance level.be it 5000 4000 3000 ect.
Do yourself a favour and stop reading t-nation ect its filling your head full of crap,go out and join a proper hardcore gym and then you might open your eyes to the reality of drug use,go to a natural bb show and see how little these guys weigh.
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How do I know the strongmen aren't using gear? Because I know several of the competitors personally and through other boards. Pro strongmen, such as Mariusz Pudzianowski, are obviously roided freaks. With amateur strongmen, on the other hand, steroid use isn't nearly as prevalent. Again, I have several friends that compete in strongman shows, and they do very well (several of them got 1st in their division at the MA champs) without roids.
Thanks for the clarification on the roids & cutting thing. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to how steroids work.
Here's the thing: I don't care about competitive BBers. I really don't. They can be content to have 5% BF and starve themselves to get in competition shape. My goal is to be big, relatively lean (but not competition shape), and athletic. Most competitive BBers, natural or otherwise, are in it only for the look. They may look great on stage, but that's about where they stop. That's not what I'm about. I may never get the perfect symmetry or the striations or 5% bodyfat, but I'll be bigger for it, and stronger, and more athletic. I agree with Christian Thibaudeau:
To me, bodybuilding should be about building the ideal physique: rugged, muscular, and lean, but also strong, powerful, enduring, fast and agile. I sometimes yearn for old-time bodybuilders who were also competitive lifters: John Grimek, Steve Stanko, Tommy Kono, Franco Columbu, etc. These men looked like brick walls and were just as strong.
Today my physique ideal is found not on the IFBB stage, but rather in the world of sports with football players like David Boston, Terrell Owens, and Thomas Jones; Olympic lifters like Tavakoli Hossein, Timur Taïmazov, and Pyrros Dimas; and sprinters and Olympic gymnasts. I also see it in guys like former football player turned wrestler/actor Bill Goldberg, and fighter turned actor Michael Jaï White.
All these men have tremendously muscular physiques, and they can do plenty with them too. In a world of Honda Civics with $20,000 worth of body mods, supped-up sound systems, but the same weak 105-HP engine, these men combine the sturdiness of a Hummer with the speed of a Ferrari.
I have no interest in competing as a bodybuilder, so why waste my time trying to build perfect proportions and trying to please some judges, when I can still get big and lean, and have an aesthetically pleasing body, although not "up to" the standards of competitive bodybuilders (if you can call them "aesthetically pleasing")? Why should I stress over my serratus when in reality nobody else cares? All in all, I find your standard bodybuilder to be overly vain and narcissistic.
And I kinda doubt that a "proper hardcore gym" according to you would be what I consider hardcore. If I were to leave my current gym, I'd go to TPS in Everett, MA. They train strongmen, olympic lifters and powerlifters. You'd get big and strong there, and you could keep your diet in check and maybe add some cardio to get lean. What else could you want? Muscular, lean, strong, and athletic. THAT'S my idea of a hardcore gym. But why would I want to leave my gym? They have everything I need and are affordable, regardless of how "hardcore" it is or how anyone else there trains. I'm not there to train like the rest of the gym, I'm there to train to achieve my own goals. Those goals may be different than yours, but I do know how to achieve them.
Big: eat a lot of good foods and lift heavy weights
Strong: lift heavy weights for low reps, address weaknesses
Lean: proper nutrition and high-intensity cardio
Athletic: high-intensity cardio, GPP, olympic lifting
If you can convince me that those approaches to my goals won't work, fine. Otherwise, why bother telling me I'm wrong without anything besides "that website is filling your head full of crap" to back yourself up?
And the reason I gave this advice in this thread is that most people aren't interested in becoming competitive BBers. But being big, strong, lean and athletic? I have a feeling that lots of guys are interested in that.
Thanks for the clarification on the roids & cutting thing. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to how steroids work.
Here's the thing: I don't care about competitive BBers. I really don't. They can be content to have 5% BF and starve themselves to get in competition shape. My goal is to be big, relatively lean (but not competition shape), and athletic. Most competitive BBers, natural or otherwise, are in it only for the look. They may look great on stage, but that's about where they stop. That's not what I'm about. I may never get the perfect symmetry or the striations or 5% bodyfat, but I'll be bigger for it, and stronger, and more athletic. I agree with Christian Thibaudeau:
To me, bodybuilding should be about building the ideal physique: rugged, muscular, and lean, but also strong, powerful, enduring, fast and agile. I sometimes yearn for old-time bodybuilders who were also competitive lifters: John Grimek, Steve Stanko, Tommy Kono, Franco Columbu, etc. These men looked like brick walls and were just as strong.
Today my physique ideal is found not on the IFBB stage, but rather in the world of sports with football players like David Boston, Terrell Owens, and Thomas Jones; Olympic lifters like Tavakoli Hossein, Timur Taïmazov, and Pyrros Dimas; and sprinters and Olympic gymnasts. I also see it in guys like former football player turned wrestler/actor Bill Goldberg, and fighter turned actor Michael Jaï White.
All these men have tremendously muscular physiques, and they can do plenty with them too. In a world of Honda Civics with $20,000 worth of body mods, supped-up sound systems, but the same weak 105-HP engine, these men combine the sturdiness of a Hummer with the speed of a Ferrari.
I have no interest in competing as a bodybuilder, so why waste my time trying to build perfect proportions and trying to please some judges, when I can still get big and lean, and have an aesthetically pleasing body, although not "up to" the standards of competitive bodybuilders (if you can call them "aesthetically pleasing")? Why should I stress over my serratus when in reality nobody else cares? All in all, I find your standard bodybuilder to be overly vain and narcissistic.
And I kinda doubt that a "proper hardcore gym" according to you would be what I consider hardcore. If I were to leave my current gym, I'd go to TPS in Everett, MA. They train strongmen, olympic lifters and powerlifters. You'd get big and strong there, and you could keep your diet in check and maybe add some cardio to get lean. What else could you want? Muscular, lean, strong, and athletic. THAT'S my idea of a hardcore gym. But why would I want to leave my gym? They have everything I need and are affordable, regardless of how "hardcore" it is or how anyone else there trains. I'm not there to train like the rest of the gym, I'm there to train to achieve my own goals. Those goals may be different than yours, but I do know how to achieve them.
Big: eat a lot of good foods and lift heavy weights
Strong: lift heavy weights for low reps, address weaknesses
Lean: proper nutrition and high-intensity cardio
Athletic: high-intensity cardio, GPP, olympic lifting
If you can convince me that those approaches to my goals won't work, fine. Otherwise, why bother telling me I'm wrong without anything besides "that website is filling your head full of crap" to back yourself up?
And the reason I gave this advice in this thread is that most people aren't interested in becoming competitive BBers. But being big, strong, lean and athletic? I have a feeling that lots of guys are interested in that.
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Only two of my friends no i use gear several others have asked me and i have denied it,just because you are friends with someone doesn't mean they will admit to using gear,reason being most people even those who train have a misguided negative attitude to steroid users.Once you admit to using gear people do start to treat you differently,example i lost my temper with a guy who cut me up in the car and one of my mates straight away said,so thats what roid rage is like,i wasn't even on a cycle.
Steroid use is much more prevalent than people realise even at a low level in all competitive sports,wether drug tested or not,few year back there were table tennis players testing positive,couple of u.k soccer players tested positive.
You have designer labs making gear that carn't be tested.
I would say the vast majority of steroid users would denie using if you asked them to the face.
You posted a pic of a guy who is an obvious steroid user and then made the claim that this is attainable natty which it isn't,not having a go at you mate just being honest,i had an argument with some guy who was adamant that mike mentzner was natty because he had read it in his book so it must be true,ive seen newbies really shocked to find out arnie used gear.
Yes you can get big natural,yes you can get low bodyfat natural,but to get big and cut then no.
Steroid use is much more prevalent than people realise even at a low level in all competitive sports,wether drug tested or not,few year back there were table tennis players testing positive,couple of u.k soccer players tested positive.
You have designer labs making gear that carn't be tested.
I would say the vast majority of steroid users would denie using if you asked them to the face.
You posted a pic of a guy who is an obvious steroid user and then made the claim that this is attainable natty which it isn't,not having a go at you mate just being honest,i had an argument with some guy who was adamant that mike mentzner was natty because he had read it in his book so it must be true,ive seen newbies really shocked to find out arnie used gear.
Yes you can get big natural,yes you can get low bodyfat natural,but to get big and cut then no.
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9cyclops9
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Like I said, you still haven't done anything to convince me that I can't achieve my goals of being big, strong, lean, and athletic through the methods I mentioned. So I'm not really sure what you're arguing. If Gulledge uses steroids, that doesn't prove anything except that he uses steroids. It isn't evidence that you can't get big and lean without steroids. Show me some proof of that, and I'll shut up. And no, anecdotal evidence doesn't work, and neither does saying that so-and-so used roids.
Let's see some proof that I'm wrong.
Let's see some proof that I'm wrong.
Ive just posted a pic up of a guy who has been training natty for 13 years,even if you brought his b/f up to 10% which i would class as lean he still wouldn't be more than 12.5 stone,thats proof isn't it.
Just to add if you check his routines out they all focus on the big basic lifts.
I no i'm not going to convince you so if your still posting on [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]mos[/words] when you manage to achieve your goal will you please post a pic so i can see what you define as big and lean cheers.
Just to add if you check his routines out they all focus on the big basic lifts.
I no i'm not going to convince you so if your still posting on [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]mos[/words] when you manage to achieve your goal will you please post a pic so i can see what you define as big and lean cheers.
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9cyclops9
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No, that isn't proof. That's one skinny natural bodybuilder. I mean documented, scientific proof that you can't get big and lean without roids. My lean body mass is 170lbs right now. And this is after only a few months of training. So one competitive BBer that can't manage to weigh more than 175 (12.5 stone) even with 10% bodyfat (if I dropped to 10% I'd weigh 190) is not proof at all.
If Steve Reeves could weigh 215 and be this lean 50 years ago with the training and nutritional knowledge that was available then, I'm sure I could do so now. Oh, but it's impossible to get big and lean without roids, right? I'm sure Reg Park was on roids in the early 50s, right?
If Steve Reeves could weigh 215 and be this lean 50 years ago with the training and nutritional knowledge that was available then, I'm sure I could do so now. Oh, but it's impossible to get big and lean without roids, right? I'm sure Reg Park was on roids in the early 50s, right?
Might come as a shock mate but drug use started in the mid 40s-50s,have a look at the pic and decided for yourself weather reg parks was natty or not,just to help you out dave draper and arnie have both admitted drug use,reg and arnie were also very close freinds and as arnie says steroid use was no big deal back then.
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9cyclops9
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This is pointless and a waste of time. Show me proof of your side of the argument and we'll talk. You still have yet to show me any proof that I can't get big, strong, lean and athletic without steroids. No such proof exists. Here are some pics to consider:
So you say reg park is natty i show you a pic that pretty much proves he isn't and you still ask for proof,the pics you have just posted are ment to show what,i would say all of them are high level athletes and as such use some sort of performing enchancing drug.
Ok pics here of bodybuilders from the 40s so drug free for definate.not very big are they.
Ok pics here of bodybuilders from the 40s so drug free for definate.not very big are they.
9C I dont even know why your getting so angry over it. Theres no scientific proof we can show you. Im assuming that Albert and I have been in the "game" so to speak and studied body building a lot longer than you. We are just giving you the low down of how things really are. If you want the cold hard truth of why you cant be lean and big personally is because you dont have the genetics for it. You might get there after youve spent about 5-10 years building on solid muscle that isnt going away anytime soon and then following a very strict diet. The thing is with powerlifters and such that you claim being big strong and lean. Number 1 like it was said, a lot of them juice, but on the other hand think about it. Most powerlifters are genetically strong people, and Id say a good portion of those poeple have natural good pysiques. So genetics is what plays a role in that. Look at black people, for instance. Im not being racist either as Id love to have me some black genetics. I see tons of black people who probably have never lifted a weight a day in their life, that look like they are regulars in the gym. My point is YES some a small minority of people can be somewhat big and lean naturally, but its such a small percentage of people, and I can tell you that you are not one of them.
Oh and Id like to see some of your definitons of lean. 10% body fat while good, isnt what id considered totally lean. You're still gonna be a bit soft at 10%. Now if you wanna get big and still be kinda smooth and soft naturally then yea you can do that.
Oh and Id like to see some of your definitons of lean. 10% body fat while good, isnt what id considered totally lean. You're still gonna be a bit soft at 10%. Now if you wanna get big and still be kinda smooth and soft naturally then yea you can do that.
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PA, I've already dropped the Reg Park thing. Neither of us has any proof one way or the other. Pics of his physique don't prove anything. Pics of some guys from the 40s don't prove anything. I could show you pics of Bobby Pandour (google it), who died in 1920, who's muscular development could rival many of the BB competitors in the 50s.
I'm already bigger than some of those guys from the 40s, so does that mean I take roids? No. I'm obviously not going to convince you that you can get big and lean without roids because you refuse to think I might be right and you might be wrong. It's pointless for us to continue this argument, so I vote to drop it.
franchise, what makes you think I'm angry? Besides, no matter how long you've been in "the game," that doesn't make you an expert on building muscle. Why should I listen to your opinion rather than the educated theories and practical advice of such men as Siff, Zatsiorski, and well-reputed coaches such as Waterbury, Thibaudeau, DeFranco, Tate, and Simmons, and nutritionists such as Berardi, Lowery, and Barr?
Furthermore, what makes the two of you think that my approach won't work? Have you tried it? If what you're doing isn't working for you, quit blaming other people's roid usage and your genetics, and try something new! You might surprise yourself.
I'm already bigger than some of those guys from the 40s, so does that mean I take roids? No. I'm obviously not going to convince you that you can get big and lean without roids because you refuse to think I might be right and you might be wrong. It's pointless for us to continue this argument, so I vote to drop it.
franchise, what makes you think I'm angry? Besides, no matter how long you've been in "the game," that doesn't make you an expert on building muscle. Why should I listen to your opinion rather than the educated theories and practical advice of such men as Siff, Zatsiorski, and well-reputed coaches such as Waterbury, Thibaudeau, DeFranco, Tate, and Simmons, and nutritionists such as Berardi, Lowery, and Barr?
Furthermore, what makes the two of you think that my approach won't work? Have you tried it? If what you're doing isn't working for you, quit blaming other people's roid usage and your genetics, and try something new! You might surprise yourself.
Sorry man I know what I do works. I just know the reality of the limitation of genetics for normal people.
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thefranchise said:
So in the same thread, you say that you can't get big and lean without roids, then you go on to say that what you're doing works. So you leave me with only a few possible conclusions:
1. What you're doing works (and thus, you can get big and lean without roids)
2. What you're doing doesn't really work (and thus, doesn't work without roids. Although there's still the possibility that something out there works without roids, you just aren't doing it)
3. You're actually on roids, and this is why what you're doing is working
4. "This works for me" doesn't mean "this will make me big and lean." In other words, your goals are different than mine, and you're not really trying to get big and lean, and your training program helps you stay "not big and lean" (I doubt this option is true).
So which is it?
My goal is just to be bigger and have good muscular development and shape. Im water retentive and have a bit of excess fat on me from creatine and carb loading. Nothing major but im not lean. Trust me youll soon turn to juice , to get the look you want. Then youll come and be like you guys were right . After you try and do it naturally and lose so much strength and size.
. After you try and do it naturally and lose so much strength and size.Hey cyclops i was browsing around and saw your post http://www.mattersofsize.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17430&page=1&highlight=starting+back+pic with all the advice you have giving me have you made any progress yet and wat was your bf % in that pic.
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thefranchise said:My goal is just to be bigger and have good muscular development and shape. Im water retentive and have a bit of excess fat on me from creatine and carb loading. Nothing major but im not lean. Trust me youll soon turn to juice , to get the look you want. Then youll come and be like you guys were right
So I'd be correct in assuming you're on steroids? I don't think there's anything wrong with steroids, but I personally wouldn't try them. However, I wonder if you ever tried something similar to what I'm doing before you decided to juice. Or if you've ever tried it at all. And I'm wondering what makes you think that my approach won't work. I've gained 25 lbs of muscle in the last few months, but you seem to maintain that it isn't possible.
dee3186, keep in mind that I've only been at this since April. In that time, however, I have made a lot of progress. I can now squat and deadlift nearly 400 lbs each, my bench press is approaching 250, and I've gained around 25 lbs of muscle. Between the pics on page 1 and the ones on page 2, I gained 16 lbs, and since the pics on page 2 of that thread, I've gained an additional 10 lbs, most of that being muscle. My bodyfat percentage went down from what it originally was (not sure of the exact number, but probably around 18%) to 11%, but it's now up to 15-16% due to poor diet while I was on semester break. If you're doubting any of the advice I've given you (totally understandable as I'm not extremely experienced), let me know what it is and I'll point you to where I got my information, then you can decide for yourself. But I can guarantee that every bit of advice I've given can be backed up if need be.
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I'm working on it. 
Actually, I'm trying to put on some more muscle mass before I focus on getting ripped up.
Actually, I'm trying to put on some more muscle mass before I focus on getting ripped up.
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9cyclops9
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The thing i find funny is you are taking the training advice of coaches who are juicers,louis simmons has admitted to being on gear soild for 29 years,westside lifters are notorious for there drug use.
I don't need to google bobby pandour to no who he is,yes you can get the odd one or two individuals who are lucky to be gifted with exceptional genetics but if you were one of them you would no it already.
Just looking at your pics and to be honest apart from your legs you don't even look like you lift weights,195lb at 12%,you must be using the calipers wrong because you are alot more than 12% i would say 16% at least,you might of gained 25lb but it isn't muscle sorry.
I don't need to google bobby pandour to no who he is,yes you can get the odd one or two individuals who are lucky to be gifted with exceptional genetics but if you were one of them you would no it already.
Just looking at your pics and to be honest apart from your legs you don't even look like you lift weights,195lb at 12%,you must be using the calipers wrong because you are alot more than 12% i would say 16% at least,you might of gained 25lb but it isn't muscle sorry.
Oh i didnt see those pics i just saw the first one, the advice you have been giving seems to be legit from were i have read it other than here but you need to switch your routine because it looks like you have no muscle especially in your chest you need to cut now your bodyfat look way to high once you get rid of that your gonna look skinny. I tried bulking then i was gonna run about 10lbs off to be solid muscle its not as easy as i thought so you should just stick to building muscle instead of bulking.
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prince Albert said:
Well believe what you want, but I lost fat between the two sets of pics, and weighed 16 lbs more. I'm now 25 lbs more but my BF% is a bit higher than it was in that pic (like I already said), although not as high as when I started. But I'm not going to argue with you about that, because you seem to be taking personal shots to make me look bad. I already said my body wasn't anything to be impressed about. I'm making good progress, but apparently not enough. What kind of progress are you expecting in 3.5 months (the time between pics)?
That said, I've done a ton of research since I started lifting. What I'm doing is working very well for me (regardless of your opinion of my body after only 3.5 months), and I'm not willing to change it drastically just yet because I really like this kind of training and the results it's given me. I've gained a significant amount of muscle. My total on the big 3 is over 1000 after only 4 months (the last time I maxed). And for a good portion of that time, I wasn't even training for size, only strength. I don't see how the style of training you're recommending me will give me the same type of gains (maybe muscular gains, but not strength).
As far as "taking advice from juicers," what's your point there? You've admitted to juicing, so according to your logic I shouldn't take your advice either. Anyway, Waterbury and Thibaudeau (the two that have influenced me the most from that list) are both natural. I'm really sick of the steroid debate. If you don't believe good gains can be made naturally, it's not my problem. You can continue to rely on chemicals for your gains (not that I have a problem with roids, but I believe they should be used only after you've "maxed out" your natural gains), and I'll continue to make gains naturally on what has been proven to work over and over for natural trainees (namely, high volume strength training with adequate nutrition, and a 3 day per week full body routine with heavy compound movements).
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dee3186 said:
You tell me to cut, then you say I need to build muscle, but don't bulk?? Which is it?
My bodyfat wasn't very high at all in those pics, it must be bad lighting (the flash doesn't work on that camera so it's a little blurry). I know my pecs were "lagging," but remember, for most of the time I've been training I was more focused on strength than looks. I still am, but I'm also focusing on the look now.
This thread has turned from training advice to personal attacks and critiques. I'm not going to defend my progress any further. I am a beginner, so you can't expect staggering results. The numbers are there, and if you don't believe me there's nothing I can do to convince you (referring in general, not to anyone specifically). Let's get back to the topic. What I look like after 4 months of training has nothing to do with what works and what doesn't. Let's just stick to that because this is going nowhere.
9c9 you admit you are a beginner then dismiss other types of training as crap,then claim your type of training produces results,you post pics of steroid users to back up your claims and say they are examples of what is achievable natty.
I wasn't making a personal attack on you simply pointing out that your physique doesn't match your claims.
Your lifts are good,legs can see an improvement but sorry if it hurts your feelings your upper body looks untrained,12% bodyfat you should be able to see the abs coming through chest should be starting to show definition and shoulders and arms will be visualy hard.you also appear to have mild gyno but it could just be fat.
If you are happy following that type of routine fine but don't dismiss other types of training that you have never tried simply because you have read a little bit on the internet.
Like i said its not my intention to hurt your feelings,i'm only being honest the routine you are following might be good for strength but it doesn't seem to be producing the result physique wise.
I wasn't making a personal attack on you simply pointing out that your physique doesn't match your claims.
Your lifts are good,legs can see an improvement but sorry if it hurts your feelings your upper body looks untrained,12% bodyfat you should be able to see the abs coming through chest should be starting to show definition and shoulders and arms will be visualy hard.you also appear to have mild gyno but it could just be fat.
If you are happy following that type of routine fine but don't dismiss other types of training that you have never tried simply because you have read a little bit on the internet.
Like i said its not my intention to hurt your feelings,i'm only being honest the routine you are following might be good for strength but it doesn't seem to be producing the result physique wise.
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9cyclops9
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Fair enough bro, I took it too personally.
I've said in this thread, the type of training you've mentioned is good for hypertrophy, but there's not going to be as much strength gain as with my type of training. I'm after strength just as much as hypertrophy, so that's the type of program I'm following. It's been working for my goals up until recently. The next program I'll be following is a little more hypertrophy-oriented, but it still uses most of the same principles I've mentioned (high-volume strength training, etc).
Again, sorry for taking it too personally.
I've said in this thread, the type of training you've mentioned is good for hypertrophy, but there's not going to be as much strength gain as with my type of training. I'm after strength just as much as hypertrophy, so that's the type of program I'm following. It's been working for my goals up until recently. The next program I'll be following is a little more hypertrophy-oriented, but it still uses most of the same principles I've mentioned (high-volume strength training, etc).
Again, sorry for taking it too personally.
9C9,i sometimes forget that some members on forums are still quite young and i can be quite blunt at times,its not nice having someone criticize your physique so if i did hurt your feelings i apologise.
If you keep training long term you will probably find you change the way you train from time to time and what works for you now may not produce results in the future,keep an open mind and don't dismiss something off hand simply because it doesn't fit with your current training style.
If you keep training long term you will probably find you change the way you train from time to time and what works for you now may not produce results in the future,keep an open mind and don't dismiss something off hand simply because it doesn't fit with your current training style.
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9cyclops9
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You didn't hurt my feelings, I know I have a long way to go. No hard feelings bro.
9cyclops9 said:
My bad when i was thinking bulking i was thinking getting big with muscle and fat which i would be avoiding with that bf% and instead try to cut and just build muscle.
9cyclops9 said:
You taking it the wrong way, i was just shocked i thought i was taking advice from someone looking like prince albert thats been at bb for years, If you bf is around 12% i need to get mines checked sooner because i can see all my muscles i was thinking i was 11-12% i want to see the lines in them thought so under 8% is were i need to be.
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9cyclops9
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Yes, I'm relatively new to all of this, but like I said I've done a lot of research. Any of the advice I've given, I can back up.