Starting back (and a pic)...advice?

9

9cyclops9

Guest
So I went to the gym today for the first time in a LONG time. I'm gonna be sore as crap tomorrow. My ass already hurts. :D

Anyway, I've been reading a lot about nutrition, supplementation, workout routines, etc. mostly from bodybuilding.com but I still have a few questions. I'd rather ask you guys than go to another forum, because I know that there are several of you that really know your stuff, and the BB.com forum is so huge, I'm afraid I'd lose my post.

I'm wondering mainly about lifting routines. I'm not necessarily going for lots of mass, of course some would be good. I know that heavy weights and low reps is best for strength, and I know exercises that hit large groups of muscles are best. So I did 4x6 each of bench press (for pecs and tris), dumbbell military press (shoulders and tris), lat pulldown (lats...duh :D and bis), and squats. I know I should probably add deadlifts. And stuff for abs.

My question is, what kind of changes should I make? Again keep in mind I'm not going for the massive Ronnie Coleman look lol, but more of like a boxer or MMA type physique. Strength for me is just as important or more than size, and I want to stay as lean as possible, even if it means slower muscle gains.

Also, for a postworkout meal, I believe I've read (not sure though, too much info) that it's good to have some carbs with your protein shake, right? Like one guy was saying he had a protein shake and oats. Does that mean put the oats in the shake and put it in a blender or something? What's the best way to go about it?

For my stats I'm 5'10" and 179 lbs as of today. Bodyfat is low compared to a lot of people, but I'm kinda disgusted with it. I haven't been able to run in a while because of stress fractures in my shins, but I tend to lose fat very quickly when I'm running regularly, so I'm not too worried about it. Here's my pathetic starting pic. Sorry about the bad quality, it's hard to get a decent pic without the flash when the sun is behind me. Like my messy room? :D

Also sorry my post is kinda rambling and hyper-sounding. I'm in a weird mood.
 
Also, as far as supps go, I'm taking a multi, fish oil (though not as much as some people seem to recommend), and flax seed oil. I ordered some creatine since it's fairly cheap, so I should have it tomorrow or Saturday probably. Any changes I should make here? Maybe IGF-1?

Just kidding. :D
 
Bud, it looks like you got a good grip on what you are doing. Dont skip those abs.
No reason to over think this thing, its just not that scientific. Consistency, progressive
resistance, eat and rest well. Oh yeah, one other thing---------get a tan for crying out loud---------ha ha
 
Yeah a tan is hard to come by in Boston. I do tan really easily though, so this summer it should get better. Sorry about the long rambling post.

As my teacher told us this morning, "Sorry I'm zooming all over the place. There are certain drugs you can take that make you...zoom." :D I was on dexadrine (similar to adderall) because I had a lot to get done. I think my teacher was on it because he had a massive hangover. Welcome to music school. lol
 
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ZOOM ZOOM ZOOM

Anyhow it looks like you have a pretty good base to start from, and once you get active again and up your protein intake the bodyfat will come off.

You need to get a good diet going. Lots of lean meats and good dairy proteins, and try to avoid simple sugars and simple carbs. As you said, oats are a great source, yams are good also.

I think at your height if you were 175-180 ripped you would be at your ideal look.
 
Yeah that's pretty much what my diet is like anyway. I generally eat very well. I'm trying to get into the whole 5 meals a day thing though. It's kinda weird.

Back to one of my questions:

9cyclops9 said:
Also, for a postworkout meal, I believe I've read (not sure though, too much info) that it's good to have some carbs with your protein shake, right? Like one guy was saying he had a protein shake and oats. Does that mean put the oats in the shake and put it in a blender or something? What's the best way to go about it?
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The best way would be to make the oats into oatmeal, and drink your shake. When you grind up oats, you may be raising the G.I. (glycemic index) of the oats, and taking away the "oatiness" of it. Lower GI = slower digestion, lower spike in blood sugar.

How big of a difference this makes I have no idea. This is just what I have read on some BB boards.
 
Cardio, protein and water is the killer-combo. All three will get you more ripped, and I thinks that what you need to do; Lose bodyfate. You have an excellent base to work with, so I dont think adding muscle mass would be too much of a problem.
 
How's it comin'? What's your routine like now? I've got about 3 more days left on the German volume training program. I'm kind of curious to see how much my strength has gone up (or down)when I begin a different routine. I gotta say that my strength-endurance has gone way up and have even gotten a lot of cardiovascular benefits from this program. I also think that I've put on more mass. I'd say that I've gained about 3-4lbs in the last 3 weeks while on this program. My weight is now at almost 205lbs. I'd like to put on at least 20 - 25 more lbs of mass before I just cut up and stay put.

Regards,

HOOS
 
Coming along. I'm doing approximately this routine (5x5 on all for now):

DAY 1
bench
close grip bench
lat pulldown
dips
chinups

DAY 2
squats
good mornings
calf machine
core

rest day

DAY 3
military press
shrugs
cleans
one arm dumbbell snatches

DAY 4
deadlifts
bent over rows
chinups
rowing machine

Thinking about adding in some more one hand lifts, like bent presses and windmills. Great for core without doing crunches. I need to make myself do some cardio because although I've lost a little fat, I should have lost a lot more. I'm up 5 lbs to 184 now, so that's a great sign, since I can tell I have less fat.

Ah I forgot, I do a lot of grip work. Ironmind grippers (have a #3 and #4 coming in the mail soon), short steel bending and this softball pinch grip thing you can see in my progress log.
 
Yeah but I'm better looking. :D

Oh, and just for that, you get the red eye. Purty, ain't it? rofl
 
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lol Yeah I just got done with that actually. It gets pretty bad sometimes because I live by myself and nobody ever comes over. Mainly because I say "No, let's get coffee instead. My room's a mess." :D
 
how much protein do you get per day?

Also, from what I've read, you should get about 45g of carbs, and 15g of protein within 45min of your workout. Then another good meal within then next 90min or so. Just what I've read.
 
I get a lot of protein. Three or four eggs for breakfast, chicken or fish for lunch, same for dinner, post-workout shake with 2 scoops of whey (followed by lunch or dinner), lots of milk. Etc. Lots of protein.

My post workout shake looks something like this:

2 scoops whey
1/2 cup oats
1/2 banana
2 cups milk
creatine & glutamine

I got the creatine and glutamine because I got overambitious when I first started out. I don't think I'll buy them again for a while, at least until I've been working out for a while and put on some decent muscle mass.
 
Creatine is a good supplement, however glutamine is highly debatable. I wouldn't waste my money on glutamine. As soon as finals are over I will be back at the gym.
 
Yeah I dunno a buddy of mine used to call it the red eye.

BTW, I'm pretty sure I'm done with creatine because it gives me ridiculous gas. Like seriously if I go a full minute without farting it's an accomplishment, and they smell awful. As soon as I stopped taking it I quit farting. Maybe it's because it's a cheap kind but I'm not willing to spend the $$ for quality stuff right now.
 
^^ Cheap too, or the same price as monohydrate I believe. Search for it at 1fast400.com and I think it is something like 6.99 for 100 grams.
 
your routine looks pretty solid for bulking. depending on your recovery time maybe consider doing benches and dips twice a week. You didn't mention adductors, or forearms, or flys, or leg extensions. Depends on how much time you have
 
Actually after a few weeks of that routine I decided I didn't like it. I think working each bodypart only once per week was no good. I'm now doing a program very similar to Chad Waterbury's "Big Boy Basics" found at T-Nation. My version is like this:

Day 1

8 sets of 3

Bench Press
Seated Rows
Pull-ups
Military Press

Day 2

3 sets of 8

Squats
Romanian Deadlift
Serratus Crunches
Decline Bench Situps
Calf Raises

Day 4

3 sets of 8

Incline Bench Press
Bent Over Rows
Dips
Upright Rows

Day 5

8 sets of 3

Squats
Leg Curls
Seated Calf Raises
Side Bends
Weighted Swiss Ball Crunches


It's short, sweet and basic, so I can hit everything hard and heavy. The Squats and Deads day is total hell, but it's good. I recently went home for a couple weeks and all my friends could tell I had been working out, so I took that as a good sign. The only problem was I gained some extra fat while I was home too. :D

I've been reading a lot at T-Nation lately. They have the type of training info I've been looking for: heavy strength training with compound movements and no isolation and pumping stuff. I just never could get into the type of training so many bodybuilders do (ie. on "chest day" do bench, barbell bench, flyes, incline bench, pullovers, pec deck, etc.) and I'm finding this a lot more fun (and hard!) and more productive.
 
AncientChina said:
Drop the monohydrate 9cyclops. It has a really weak absorption rate, and is the cause of "creatine bloat" and other anonyances....just not worth it. Try some CEE: Creatine Ester Ethyl. You only need about 3 grams a day of CEE, no loading phase and you can even cap it so you don't have taste it's well, quite shitty taste.
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Creatine is one of the best supplements on the market. It's one of the only sports nutrition supplements worth buying. Creatine bloat isnt that bad for the results you get. As for any other creatine product other than normal creatine don't buy into it.
 
thefranchise said:
Creatine is one of the best supplements on the market. It's one of the only sports nutrition supplements worth buying. Creatine bloat isnt that bad for the results you get. As for any other creatine product other than normal creatine don't buy into it.
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I'm going to have to disagree with you. The bloat is pretty dang bad, to the point that right now I'm not using any creatine because I don't like farting in class with two gorgeous girls sitting on either side of me. It smells awful. I also don't like walking down the street and farting every 10 steps or so. I don't care what kind of benefit it gives, it isn't worth it.

Besides, there is plenty of research out there that shows that CEE is much more effective than creatine monohydrate. It absorbs better and doesn't cause bloating. Et cetera. It's just a better product, from what I've been able to find.
 
Ok, update time. I'm now 195 lbs, up from 179, and my BF is at 12% according to my calipers. My PR lifts are (all done for 8 sets of 3):

Squat: 300
Deadlift: 315
Bench: 195 (sucks, I know)
Military Press: 135
Power Clean: 155

I'm coming up on the end of a routine I designed. It looks like this:

Day 1

8x3 Military Press
5x5 Pull-up
3x8 Incline Bench
5x5 BB curl
2x8 Weighted Decline Bench Sit-ups

Day 2

8x3 Deadlift
3x8 Squat
3x10 Seated Calf Raise
2x8 Swiss Ball Crunch/Russian Twist Superset

Day 3

cardio/GPP

Day 4

8x3 Bench Press
8x3 Power Clean
3x8 Bent Row
3x8 Weighted Dips
5x5 Pull-up
abs same as Day 1

Day 5

8x3 Squat
3x8 Reverse Hyper
3x10 Standing Calf Raise
abs same as Day 2

Day 6

cardio/GPP

Day 7

off



After next week I'll be starting a different routine. I'm considering Chad Waterbury's "Anti-Bodybuilding Hypertrophy" or "Waterbury Method." I'll also take a look at millionman's new program and see how I like it. Or I might decide on something totally different, who knows.

Like my face? :D
 
I did Brazilian jiujitsu for a while and I've done power lifting. Your routines are decent, but it seems your switching them up a bit too much. Changing the routines are good after a couple weeks though. For example, on day one you bench press and do upper body movements. The next day you do lower body like dead lifts and squats. The third day you go back to upper body but instead of a regular bench you do a wide or close grip. Also stick with a certain rep range too. For benching, try not to do more than 4-6 reps. Hitting more isn't the best for strength. Bah my 2 cents for now. :s
 
I'm really getting into CNS lifting. You alter your movement patterns every workout so your CNS does not crash and you can workout more frequently. This is quite a drastic thought change but a necessary one. If you constantly grind in a certain lift attempting to lift heavier and heavier your CNS will adapt and your tissues will become more prone to injury. You alter the stimulus to your nervous system by altering movement patterns, rep ranges, speed of movement, load parameters, and you can continue to improve overall while also improving strenght in the primary lifts (squats, deadlifts, presses). That's part of what I am working on at the moment, at least part of the theory behind, and I in no way can claim responsibility for it, but I have been reading alot of research from an evil Russian by name of Yuri Verkoshansky and Dr. Mel Siff. Their information compiled over 20 years ago is absoultely incredible.
 
Juggers said:
I did Brazilian jiujitsu for a while and I've done power lifting. Your routines are decent, but it seems your switching them up a bit too much. Changing the routines are good after a couple weeks though.
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I've been changing the routine every month or so. I guess I don't quite follow you.

For example, on day one you bench press and do upper body movements. The next day you do lower body like dead lifts and squats. The third day you go back to upper body but instead of a regular bench you do a wide or close grip. Also stick with a certain rep range too. For benching, try not to do more than 4-6 reps. Hitting more isn't the best for strength. Bah my 2 cents for now. :s
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I'm not purely going for strength, but also size. I've found I can't keep reps low and sets high on every lift (which isn't recommended in any decent training program as far as I know), so I switch things up. I can't do near-maximal benching twice in a week, for example. Last time I tried that I ended up having to get two guys to pull the weight off my chest. Read some of Chad Waterbury's articles on T-Nation, this is the type of approach I'm taking.

http://www.t-nation.com/ALSAuthor.d...B8A6E125DDD0D.hydra?p=Chad Waterbury&pageNo=1

I'm also thinking about Joe DeFranco's "Westside for Skinny Bastards" with an added repetition lower body day (or maybe just the original as written). This would also go along the lines of what you're talking about, mil. We'll see.
 
millionman said:
I'm really getting into CNS lifting. You alter your movement patterns every workout so your CNS does not crash and you can workout more frequently. This is quite a drastic thought change but a necessary one. If you constantly grind in a certain lift attempting to lift heavier and heavier your CNS will adapt and your tissues will become more prone to injury. You alter the stimulus to your nervous system by altering movement patterns, rep ranges, speed of movement, load parameters, and you can continue to improve overall while also improving strenght in the primary lifts (squats, deadlifts, presses). That's part of what I am working on at the moment, at least part of the theory behind, and I in no way can claim responsibility for it, but I have been reading alot of research from an evil Russian by name of Yuri Verkoshansky and Dr. Mel Siff. Their information compiled over 20 years ago is absoultely incredible.
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you are very correct for saying this...this is kinda what I was getting at but didn't know how to say it. The CNS is a big part of lifting. BTW westside barbell is a great place to get routines so check them out too.
 
Juggers said:
you are very correct for saying this...this is kinda what I was getting at but didn't know how to say it. The CNS is a big part of lifting. BTW westside barbell is a great place to get routines so check them out too.
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I gotcha. I'm seriously leaning toward WS4SB right now after having done some more reading on it.
 
That routine is terrible IMO,it seems everyone wants to try and complicate training over the last few years,the basics worked in the past and they still do.

Ive used the same basic lifting routine for the last 10 years and am still making gains.

As long as you are lifting more or doing more reps in the big compound movements then you are making progress.
 
prince Albert said:
That routine is terrible IMO,it seems everyone wants to try and complicate training over the last few years,the basics worked in the past and they still do.

Ive used the same basic lifting routine for the last 10 years and am still making gains.

As long as you are lifting more or doing more reps in the big compound movements then you are making progress.
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That doesn't help much. How would you change it? I don't see how my routine isn't "basic." It uses the basic compound lifts and standard rep schemes, and nothing more.
 
weight training is constantly evolving and getting better...just like fighting and mixed martial arts. How people trained years ago is different then now in a sense. Quality over quantity really...more reps does not necessarily mean better...there is a lot more to training than meets the eye...it is very scientific and there is a right and a wrong way to do things.
 
9cyclops9 there is nothing wrong with your choice of exercises but for me your doing way to much volume especially for a natural also the order in which you are doing them is all over the place.

Juggers

No its not getting better,there is very little difference in how people trained years ago,yes there are new idea being put about as the new way to train but this has always happened and always will,ive lost count of the amount of training gurus that have come and gone

5x5 has become popular again and last year on the BB board i post on all the newbies latched onto 5x5 and were singing its praises every training thread i read the reply was try 5x5,thingis 5x5 was first being used back in the 60s then fell out of favour in the 80s.

Disagree about it being scientific and there is a right and a wrong way to do things.

schwarzenegger thrived on high volume,Yates was the complete opposite low volume high intensity,Coleman is inbetween,all of which would be unsuitable for the majority of trainers.

They all won Mr O but trained totaly different to each other,one thing they all did is to strive to keep getting stronger in the big basic compound movements.


9cyclops9

This is what i would suggest,drop the bench press its a overated exercise,unless you compete in powerlifting then i dont see the point,its more of a ego movement among gym goers.

Something like this.eg mon,wed,fri

mon.

Weighted chins 3sets x6
deadlift 3x3 you should find our deadlift pondages go up quite quickly
Bentover row,one arm row ect. 3sets x10 chose a rowing movement that you can feel
Barbell curl,d/b curl ect 3sets x8-10 again choose a curling movement that you can feel working.

Wed.
Low incline d/b press 3 sets 6-8 reps
Weighted Dips 3set 6-8 reps
military press 3sets 8-10 reps
Close grip bench press or skullcrushers 3x10

Fri.

Squats 3sets x10
SLDL 3sets x8 if your lower back is to waisted to do sldl then leg curl keeping reps higher 10-12.
Standing calf raise 3sets x10
Abs, basic crunch reverse crunch.

Basic and not very exciting to look at but its the sort of routine that works for the average man on the street.

Cardio could be done 2-3 times a week on none training days.

Heres a progress pic of me,cut down from 210lb at 5'8
 
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PA, mad props on the progress. I bet that took a while. How many years did it take to get over 200 lbs?

The only problem with using Arnold, Yates, and Coleman is they are #1 Genetically gifted, #2 they utilized steroids and Growth Hormone (Coleman especially). The combination of superior genetics and steroids allows these men to train with higher volumes than the regular natural trainee. Arnold is known for his arm workouts with Franco where they would do as many as 50 sets of barbell curls simply handing the bar back and forth. Coleman uses heavy compund movements but he is also capable of deadlifting 800 X 3, and his volume varies significantly depending on the phase he's in. Yates is one of my all time favorites, but he too used higher volumes than a natural trainee should. If you have noticed there are a lot of "professional" bodybuilders who don't workout properly, merely throwing weights around and they can grow because of their genetics and their insane drug use.

For proper facilitation of hypertrophy you would usually use a total number of reps between 36-50 reps. If you were attempting to hypertrophy the tissue while also increasing maximal strength the total number is 24-36 reps total. A total volume of 8 sets of three reps falls into the maximal strength w hypertrophy and this volume is not too high to achieve the goals that CYC has set for himself. He is trying to add a bit of mass while also gaining strength.

5X5 is a good program, but is simple a guideline along which goal you have set at the time you are utilizing it. For the above parameters you could use 6 X 4, 3 X 8, 5 X 5, 8 X 3, 2 X 12 and see a similar response from the body. The only difference with each set of numbers is the load on each, as your 8 X 3 would be your heaviest working poundages while 2 X 12 would be your lightest but would still find benefits in the area of concern; that being hypertrophy with maximal strength. Using these types of rep ranges would also allow a trainee to train more often in the week.

The old tyme guys were awesome, and get much respect from me. If you want to get into some cool reading look up a book called the Ultimate Keys to Progress which is a book derived from the old Strength and Health magazines from the 60's and 70's. Each article was written by John Mccallum, and he covers everything from hip-belt squats to 20 rep breathing squats. There's a lot that science has proven over the last 30-40 years (mainly Russian) that verified what guys like Grimek, Pearl, and Reeves did in the gym. In some instances these guys just did what they thought would work best, and that was lift increasingly heavier weights for lower number of reps, and when that stops working move to something a bit different. They did a lot of heavy compound movements and were brutally strong. This is a difference from majority of the "gym" patrons today as they use machines and have no idea how to train at all, and they get tired of not making progress because they don't understand program design and they're scared of lifting heavy weights. CYC is learning his way around, and from what I have seen of his workouts and from talking with him he's doing pretty well, and is willing to learn and adapt to new ideas. This is a good thing, as it shows his willingness to think a bit differently. Remember most people can't design their own programs and a shocking number of people don't even know what a Russian Twist is. As far as his program goes it is sound for the time being as it meets his current goals and he's not over training. He's got a long way to go, but so do I, but it's a whole lot of fun trying to put it all together.
 
millionman said:
PA, mad props on the progress. I bet that took a while. How many years did it take to get over 200 lbs?

>reached 190lb after 2 years following an abbrieviated version of Randall Strossen super squats routine,1x20 breathing squat,2x15 bentover row,2x12 bench press twice a week,cycling poundages.

Over the next few years i got close to the 200lb mark using various routines.

Started using low dose aas about 2 years ago at 31 and got up to 210lb,off cycle still maintain about 203lbs,aiming more for conditioning now rather than size.

The only problem with using Arnold, Yates, and Coleman is they are #1 Genetically gifted, #2 they utilized steroids and Growth Hormone (Coleman especially). The combination of superior genetics and steroids allows these men to train with higher volumes than the regular natural trainee. Arnold is known for his arm workouts with Franco where they would do as many as 50 sets of barbell curls simply handing the bar back and forth. Coleman uses heavy compund movements but he is also capable of deadlifting 800 X 3, and his volume varies significantly depending on the phase he's in. Yates is one of my all time favorites, but he too used higher volumes than a natural trainee should.


> I used them as examples of how there is no definate way to train,they all used different types of volume yet made progress,i wasn't suggesting a natural should follow there work load.

If you have noticed there are a lot of "professional" bodybuilders who don't workout properly, merely throwing weights around and they can grow because of their genetics and their insane drug use.

>Sorry but i disagree with you there,ive trained in a gym that had several top amatuers and a couple of pros and yes they can make it look like they are throwing the weights about but they are doing what works,i have seen the intensity these guys put in,also once a certain amount of mass is reached it is often impossible to do movements in text book form.

Also to say the result they get are simply from genetics and drug use is slightly nieve,i no plenty of lads some of which use silly amounts of gear and yet look nothing.

For proper facilitation of hypertrophy you would usually use a total number of reps between 36-50 reps. If you were attempting to hypertrophy the tissue while also increasing maximal strength the total number is 24-36 reps total. A total volume of 8 sets of three reps falls into the maximal strength w hypertrophy and this volume is not too high to achieve the goals that CYC has set for himself. He is trying to add a bit of mass while also gaining strength.

>Nice theory were did you here that,from personal experiance and as well as seeing others train i no it is flawed.

5X5 is a good program, but is simple a guideline along which goal you have set at the time you are utilizing it. For the above parameters you could use 6 X 4, 3 X 8, 5 X 5, 8 X 3, 2 X 12 and see a similar response from the body. The only difference with each set of numbers is the load on each, as your 8 X 3 would be your heaviest working poundages while 2 X 12 would be your lightest but would still find benefits in the area of concern; that being hypertrophy with maximal strength. Using these types of rep ranges would also allow a trainee to train more often in the week.


>Yes any of those rep ranges would work,i used the 5x5 simply as an example of how people latch onto an idea and then think its the magic solution.

The old tyme guys were awesome, and get much respect from me. If you want to get into some cool reading look up a book called the Ultimate Keys to Progress which is a book derived from the old Strength and Health magazines from the 60's and 70's. Each article was written by John Mccallum, and he covers everything from hip-belt squats to 20 rep breathing squats. There's a lot that science has proven over the last 30-40 years (mainly Russian) that verified what guys like Grimek, Pearl, and Reeves did in the gym. In some instances these guys just did what they thought would work best, and that was lift increasingly heavier weights for lower number of reps, and when that stops working move to something a bit different. They did a lot of heavy compound movements and were brutally strong. This is a difference from majority of the "gym" patrons today as they use machines and have no idea how to train at all, and they get tired of not making progress because they don't understand program design and they're scared of lifting heavy weights. CYC is learning his way around, and from what I have seen of his workouts and from talking with him he's doing pretty well, and is willing to learn and adapt to new ideas. This is a good thing, as it shows his willingness to think a bit differently. Remember most people can't design their own programs and a shocking number of people don't even know what a Russian Twist is. As far as his program goes it is sound for the time being as it meets his current goals and he's not over training. He's got a long way to go, but so do I, but it's a whole lot of fun trying to put it all together.

>Ive got a hip belt and its a good piece of kit,gets a bit uncomfortable once you get up to the 300lb mark.

Personaly i couldn't handle the workload in CYC routine even on a cycle,also the signs of overtraining can be very subtle.

Don't see why its shocking that people don't no what a russian twist is,its simply one of many core stability movements,how many people no what a turkish getup is
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Sorry for the delay replying to this post mm.
 
PA, if you think the numbers outlined are flawed it would help if you looked into the research behind it before you make a decision. This presentation primarily comes from Yuri Verkoshansky and his 25 plus years of research. He was one of the marque scientists for the Soviet Union during their reign as the Super Power in almost all things sports, sepcifically OLY lifts and gymnastics.

Compare some gear heads and some of the natural bodybuilers training regimens and you will see a tremendous difference in total volume and amount of time in the gym. Most natural BBers can't be in the gym longer than 45-60 minutes because after this the body begins to break down muscle tissue and leads to diminshing returns on the whole. Most guys who are on cycyle tend to lift for long periods of time, in many situations it's because they believe the more they do the more the will grow. It's about education and that's where the primary difference is. Natural men and women have to be much more careful with theire program design and have to be very exact with their diet and total time training. It's interesting that the guys that I know specifically that don't train properly and use gear are a bit bigger on cycle than off, but as soon as they come off it is gone because they don't understand cycling, hormone therapy, and maintenance.
 
9cyclops9 said:
Yeah a tan is hard to come by in Boston. I do tan really easily though, so this summer it should get better. Sorry about the long rambling post.

As my teacher told us this morning, "Sorry I'm zooming all over the place. There are certain drugs you can take that make you...zoom." :D I was on dexadrine (similar to adderall) because I had a lot to get done. I think my teacher was on it because he had a massive hangover. Welcome to music school. lol
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Hey Cyclops,

I hope you don't take that shit, i.e., dexadrine, too often. I took it when I was your age when I was studying for exams, and I didn't sleep for three days.
 
goinfor11x7 said:
Hey Cyclops,

I hope you don't take that shit, i.e., dexadrine, too often. I took it when I was your age when I was studying for exams, and I didn't sleep for three days.
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Actually I've only taken it maybe three times since I got it 9 months ago or so. I may have to use it some in the next week or so, but only once or twice at the most. I only use it when I'm down to the deadline and have a lot of work to do. If it isn't urgent I use coffee, but these days even that's rare.
 
MM the reason i say flawed is from personal training experiance over 15 years and from seeing others train also from reading what others have done,it is very easy to read something on the net and become an armchair expert,you seem to be disregarding the anecdotal evidence of thousands of succesful trainers simply based on what one guy is claiming is the currect way to train.

The majority of sensible gear heads as you put it train the same way as they did when natural,http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/ have a look around here it is without doubt the most bullshit free bb forum on the net from a recent poll a 50/50 split of naturals versus aas users several of which compete,have a look through some of the training journels you might be suprised at how they actually train.

There are definitely alot of aas users who don't no how to train and eat correctly and simply use for the short term gains,these are the same guys if you mention pct would not have a clue what you were talking about.
 
Just because they've done it the same way forever and made gains doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. What I'm doing is working very well for me, so why should I change it because you don't like it?
 
prince Albert said:
Fair enough mate,i apologise for offering advice,i won't comment any further.

All the best with your training.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean it that way. Sorry for being short with you.

My point was that it's working very well, and it's working very well for tons of other people (check T-Nation, many of them do a similar type of training), and there's science to back it up. Same with your approach. I just find that I like what I'm doing for now and I'm getting results. I'm sure I'll try tons of different approaches over the years, but right now I'm liking this one very much.

I do appreciate your advice, and I like to hear different viewpoints because it offers me a chance to learn something, and gives me another idea to possibly incorporate in the future. Thanks.
 
I worked the Next Frontier for 6 weeks before it went to two a days for the 4 workouts each week because my schedule wouldn't allow it and not to mention that I got pretty ill after the UAB Memphis game at Bartow. I was able to make my workouts through the 4th phase before I had to give it up. I'm still using a high frequency plan that I put together myself. In my experiences in training other individuals the HF plans are the best way to go for fat loss and muslce gain.

Has Cyc even been around lately?
 
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