My Strange Approach

9cyclops9 · Oct 23, 2005

People that regularly come into this section may know that my approach to bodybuilding is very different from what most people do. My ideas conflict with a lot of people's ideas, and I'm fine with that. What I'm doing is working for me. Hell, I squatted and deadlifted nearly twice my bodyweight after only 3 months of lifting. I know a 2xBW squat isn't that impressive, but after 3 months, I think that's an accomplishment.

In a nutshell, here are my beliefs about training. You may disagree, but keep in mind our goals may not be the same, and what works for your goals may not work for mine.

I believe that form follows function. If you train like an athlete, you will develop an athlete's body and functionality. If you train like a bodybuilder, you'll have a bodybuilder's body and functionality. If you train like a distance runner, you'll get laughed at.

Despite what that may sound like, I'm not ragging on people who train using traditional bodybuilding methods. But, it seems apparent to me that a bodybuilder's body won't function like a football player's body unless he trains like a football player at least some of the time. But he's going to have a damn good body. Likewise, a football player's body is going to be more athletic, but I doubt you'll see them winning any BB competitions unless they train like a bodybuilder at least some of the time. A distace runner will be skinny and get laughed at, but boy, they sure can run a long time!

So what I'm saying is "train for your goals." Right now, it isn't a goal of mine to get on a BB stage and compete. My goals are to develop an aesthetically pleasing physique, and to be as strong, functional, and athletic as I can be.

I believe that good nutrition is much more than the correct ratio of proteins, carbs, and fats to build muscle and minimize fat gain. It's more than macronutrient timing, it's more than taking in the optimal amounts of the right carbs and proteins for your workout shake, and it's more than figuring out your maintenance intake and adjusting your actual intake according to your fat loss or muscle gain goals. And it's more than eating 500g of carbs, 10g of fat and 65g of protein per day so you can run that 5k in under 25 minutes.

Eat to be healthy FIRST, then eat for your body composition goals. Eat fruits and vegetables in abundance. I tend to snack on fruit all day. If you're worried about getting too many carbs, just adjust your other carb intake accordingly. I believe that fruits are the best source of carbs you can eat. It's the vitamins, minerals, enzymes, and antioxidants that make me think this. Obviously, you shouldn't snack all day long on dates (with a 103 GI), but if you're eating a variety you shouldn't need to stress about the minor details. This isn't to say that you shouldn't eat other carbs of course. Vegetables are also sorely overlooked by many people, including uneducated bodybuilders. I see a lot of posts (mostly elsewhere, but some here) that look like this (I made this up, it isn't a real quote):

"Hi im trying to BULK UP n here smy diet:

meal 1 shake with 40g protein
meal 2 chicken breast with 35g protein
meal 3 shake with 40g protein
meal 4 half a cheese sandwich, i think that's like 30g protein???
meal 5 whatever mom makes (i think 50g protein?????)
meal 6 other half of sandwich

Wat do u thnik? Oh yeah i have carbs too"

Um...what? Wow. And then there are people who actually know what they're talking about, who can tell you how many grams of polyunsaturated fats they had yesterday, and these are the ones who are healthy and have incredible bodies. BE A NERD about this stuff. It's the key to success.

I also believe that max strength is the key to muscle gains. If you build a base of solid max strength, you're going to have an easier time building muscle. I've been looking into Christian Thibaudeau's style of periodization lately. He recommends training in blocks. Each block is about four weeks long, and all the training in that block is geared toward one goal. So you might have a hypertrophy block, a strength block, or a power block, or several other types of blocks. He says that if you spend 4 weeks building up your max strength with a strength block, then when you switch to a hypertrophy block, you'll put on muscle more easily. There are other people that use this approach to periodization, but he's the one I'm learning it from for now.

I believe that olympic lifts are some of the best things you can do. Whether your goal is strength, hypertrophy, athleticism, or whatever, you can benefit from olympic lifting. It doesn't have to be the full lifts. Power cleans, push jerks and power snatches work beautifully and are easier to learn because there isn't as much technique involved.

I believe at least 75% of your training should be big compound movements. This should be a no brainer, but sometimes I wonder why people devote an entire training session to isolation for biceps and triceps. Doing 5 different types of curls is just stupid. If you like doing 5 different variations, alternate which one you use in each mesocycle, or use 2 or 3, but on different days. Isolation exercises are fine to an extent, but I fail to see why people feel the need to do squats and then hop on the adductor machine.

I believe squatting is essential. If you're in the gym and you don't squat, I'm going to laugh at you. No, you don't work your legs enough by running on the treadmill. If you want to add muscle, YOU HAVE TO SQUAT. Your body will only grow so far out of proportion. And to the guys who say you only have to work your upper body because girls don't care about legs, you are beyond help. First of all, if you're in the gym to make girls think more of you, you've got issues nobody can help you with. Second of all, girls DO care about legs. My fiancee and her friends like to laugh at the guys at their gym who suffer from lightbulb syndrome. They think it looks ridiculous to have a big upper body on top of chicken legs. Don't neglect your deadlifts either, but I think that most people that know the importance of squatting will also be doing plenty of pulling.

I believe that the only way to learn is to listen to ideas that oppose yours. I've been guilty of not doing this before. How will you know that something is working optimally for you unless you give something else a try? The only type of training I can say with reasonable certainty that I'm opposed to trying is HIT. I don't believe in going to failure on every set. I think failure training is a tool that must be used sparsely to have good effects.

I believe that high-intensity cardio is far superior to traditional cardio. Sprints, HIIT, rowing, etc. are all fantastic. This isn't to say that I think low-intensity cardio has no merit (despite my comments about distance runners), but in the end high-intensity stuff wins out. Studies have shown that sprinting regularly has a high carryover to endurance running, but it doesn't work the other way around. Not to mention that it will keep your interest more.

I believe that the body is a unit, not a collection of parts. Therefore, lifts that train the entire body, or close to it, are the best. Olympic lifts, squats, and deadlifts fall into this category. There's no excuse short of injury NOT to do these lifts.

At this point, I kind of feel like I'm rambling, so I'm just going to post a bunch of links that I consider to be required reading for anyone with similar goals as mine. I don't really know what my point in posting this thread has been, but maybe someone can learn something from it.

And yes, prince albert, most of these links are from T-Nation.

:

http://www.uwlax.edu/strengthcenter/videos/video_index.htm

http://jva.ontariostrongman.ca/

http://www.gripboard.com/

http://bulkingup.moonfruit.com/

http://www.webs.uidaho.edu/strength/strength_training.htm

http://www.fatbastardbarbellco.com/

http://www.crossfit.com/

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

http://www.diabetesnet.com/diabetes_food_diet/glycemic_index.php

And finally, to show you that there's always SOMETHING you can learn from such a long post, I'm going to teach you about beautiful women. Namely, Marzia Prince. It doesn't get any better than that, gents!

9cyclops9 · Oct 23, 2005

Nobody even likes the pics? lol

pullups · Oct 23, 2005

jesus christ if there was a way to give u rep, or karma, i would....eventhough i have somewhat different beliefs, i think we can all agree that this girl is god dam amazing

9cyclops9 · Oct 23, 2005

lol

I figured I'd include her just in case a debate developed, then at least we'd all be able to agree on something.

I am curious which parts you don't agree with though. That was part of the purpose of the thread, to have a discussion. Hopefully we can all exchange some ideas and we can learn a few things from each other on the way. I don't make any claim to have it all figured out, not by a long shot. These are just my current ideas.

PS: There is a rep button. It looks like a scale and it's at the top right of each post, in the red part.

quijjiboo · Oct 23, 2005

Excellent post cyclops! My training philosophy is similar, probably because we both learned alot from T-Mag. When I first started reading that site back when they started it in 98-99, the before and after difference in my progress was a joke. I went from being a skinny newb who couldn't gain weight for years and shot up to 200 gaining tons of strength. The amount of valuable information there on training/nutrition is ridiculous. No book or magazine on the market can even come close. Have some rep points hehe

pullups · Oct 23, 2005

Well I'll just make comments on things that have worked for me but have contridicted what you said (I have a tendency to misinterprut what people say, so if i did just let me know)
1.) Distance running in my mind is far superior to sprints in fat loss. Sprints on the other are far superior in building strenght (As i understand it it is because of the type of muscle fibers used). As such when I cut weight, i run for long distance because it sheds fat, good for your heart, and increases [words=http://fleshlight.sjv.io/c/348327/302851/4702]stamina[/words]. when i bulk i sprint because this tends to increase my leg strength, speed, and vertical leap and helps in some lifts such as powercleans (which i do when i bulk and when i cut cuz that shit makes u sweat like crazy)

2. I believe very heavily in concentration exercises. But i dont do like barbell curls then preacher curls, then concentraion curls, then hammers, and so on. Usually for each body parts I have staples. For chest bench and then i would do another type of isolation exercise (like inclines, declines, db bench, flyes,etc) to his certain muscles that may not have been properly hit. But i always limit it to 2 exercises at the most per body part

3. I dont not believe in the eating alot of fruits, because of the amount of carbs and sugars in them. I tend to eat an apple for after working out because its hi in pyruvate, has fructose (best type of sugar) and the necessary carbs your body needs after working out.

4. I belive the amount and type of food proportions you take into ur body are very important. you need to have the right amount of certain minerals, proteins, fats, carbs, and other essentials that will either aid in bulking or cutting. I mean you cant just go out and eat a grilled chicken sandwich from burger king because u think its high in protein without thinking of the carb to protein to fat ration.

5.) Fruits are great and all but i belive wheat products are the best carbs to eat

6.) I believe in always training to failure. Know this can mean yanking out forced reps (for example you bench 135 2.5 times and the spotter barely helps u get 3 reps so you basically do it ur self wit very little help) are fantastic for strength gains because your are always improving and eventually ull bet the 3rd rep by urself. or just failure sets (never exceding 18 reps, ideally never passing 15 but there is some leeway) are great for cutting and shaping.

thats all bro, i mean i agree with basically everything else.

p.s. thanks for telling me about that rep scale, see people can learn something new everyday

and why is everyones rep so low? do alot of people not know about this?

9cyclops9 · Oct 23, 2005

im2manly said:
Well I'll just make comments on things that have worked for me but have contridicted what you said (I have a tendency to misinterprut what people say, so if i did just let me know)
1.) Distance running in my mind is far superior to sprints in fat loss. Sprints on the other are far superior in building strenght (As i understand it it is because of the type of muscle fibers used). As such when I cut weight, i run for long distance because it sheds fat, good for your heart, and increases [words=http://fleshlight.sjv.io/c/348327/302851/4702]stamina[/words]. when i bulk i sprint because this tends to increase my leg strength, speed, and vertical leap and helps in some lifts such as powercleans (which i do when i bulk and when i cut cuz that shit makes u sweat like crazy)

I'll admit I may be totally wrong about this, since I haven't read up a whole lot on cardio. I'll do some reading and report what I find. I tend to include both low- and high-intensity cardio, just with an emphasis on high-intensity.

2. I believe very heavily in concentration exercises. But i dont do like barbell curls then preacher curls, then concentraion curls, then hammers, and so on. Usually for each body parts I have staples. For chest bench and then i would do another type of isolation exercise (like inclines, declines, db bench, flyes,etc) to his certain muscles that may not have been properly hit. But i always limit it to 2 exercises at the most per body part

I'd chalk this up to a difference in goals. I may be assuming too much, but I'd be willing to bet you take a more "bodybuilding" approach to training, where I take a more "performance-oriented" approach. More isolation may be necessary for a bodybuilder, but not to the extent that many people use it. When you start having 1 compound lift and 3-4 isolation exercises, something is wrong.

3. I dont not believe in the eating alot of fruits, because of the amount of carbs and sugars in them. I tend to eat an apple for after working out because its hi in pyruvate, has fructose (best type of sugar) and the necessary carbs your body needs after working out.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. Fruits are tricky, just like all carbs, but I believe that the micronutrient value of them far outweighs the fact that you might get a few extra carbs. If you're eating a whole lot of fruits, then you'll probably want to have the higher-GI ones with breakfast and around workout time.

I'd argue that an apple isn't the best thing to have post-workout. It has a very low GI because of the amount of fiber in it. Something like pineapple would be better if you're going to use fruit for your PWO nutrition. Plain old glucose would be even better.

4. I belive the amount and type of food proportions you take into ur body are very important. you need to have the right amount of certain minerals, proteins, fats, carbs, and other essentials that will either aid in bulking or cutting. I mean you cant just go out and eat a grilled chicken sandwich from burger king because u think its high in protein without thinking of the carb to protein to fat ration.

I agree, it's extremely important to count calories and macronutrient ratios, but my point was that nutrition is a lot more than ONLY doing that. Nutrient timing and micronutrients are also huge factors in good nutrition. I believe general health should be the first priority, and THEN body composition.

5.) Fruits are great and all but i belive wheat products are the best carbs to eat

Why is that? I think wheat is fine, but I don't see how it's superior to fruit when you take micronutrients into account.

thats all bro, i mean i agree with basically everything else.

p.s. thanks for telling me about that rep scale, see people can learn something new everyday and why is everyones rep so low? do alot of people not know about this?

Yeah, for whatever reason we never made a big deal out of the rep system. Never really caught on, but we are trying to push it more now that the new heirarchy system is in place.

Thanks bro! Time to go read!

9cyclops9 · Oct 23, 2005

im2manly said:
6.) I believe in always training to failure. Know this can mean yanking out forced reps (for example you bench 135 2.5 times and the spotter barely helps u get 3 reps so you basically do it ur self wit very little help) are fantastic for strength gains because your are always improving and eventually ull bet the 3rd rep by urself. or just failure sets (never exceding 18 reps, ideally never passing 15 but there is some leeway) are great for cutting and shaping.

Ah, I missed your edit.

I believe that failure training is too draining on the CNS. If I'm doing full-body workouts 3 times per week and always training to failure, I'm going to overtrain in a hurry. It's been shown that failure training isn't the best way to gain strength, otherwise powerlifters and olympic lifters would be doing it, but they aren't.

I believe failure training can have a benefit if used sparingly. And for some people, it probably works better for their goals. And sometimes it just happens. I haven't been able to make every rep I've attempted, but once I fail, I put it away.

That's just me though.

pullups · Oct 23, 2005

9cyclops9 said:
Ah, I missed your edit.

I believe that failure training is too draining on the CNS. If I'm doing full-body workouts 3 times per week and always training to failure, I'm going to overtrain in a hurry. It's been shown that failure training isn't the best way to gain strength, otherwise powerlifters and olympic lifters would be doing it, but they aren't.

I believe failure training can have a benefit if used sparingly. And for some people, it probably works better for their goals. And sometimes it just happens. I haven't been able to make every rep I've attempted, but once I fail, I put it away.

That's just me though.

Well usually i lift like this mon/thurs chest, shoulders, tri tuesday/friday bis back legs. I mean basically my whole lifting career (im 19 started lifting in 2000) i have used this technique of forced rep. now im saying it would be kinda hard to do forced reps with powercleans or squats without getting hurt. but things like deadlifts, especially bench press i have built around the principle of forced reps and my strength has been supberb. I just feel if you dont push ur self enough then you are going to plateau. i mean its like doing 25 pushups when if u tried u could get 26. powerlifters might not lift to failure but people like strongmen and bodybuilders sure do.

some questions tho:
1.) your lifting 3 days a week. is that basically a 5x5 scheme of bench, deadlifts, squats, etc on monday, wednesday, friday?

2.) Im guessing since ur trying to enchance ur atheletic ability that ur are doing alot of explosive exercies like snatches, and cleans. now why would you not want to do hip adductors ( i think thats the one where u bring ur legs in so u work that are near ur groin), or especially calves which would be considered extra exercises since these areas are hit by squats, deads, cleans?

9cyclops9 · Oct 23, 2005

Strongmen only go to failure because it is required by their sport. But as far as I know, most of them don't go to failure with their gym lifts, only with their event training.

My routine right now looks like this:

M

Back Squat 2x5, 3x3
Full Squat Clean 2x5, 3x3
Military Press 2x5, 3x3
Weighted Pull-up 2x5, 3x3

W

Deadlift 5x5
One-arm DB Power Snatch 2x5, 3x3
Bench Press 5x5
Bent Row 5x5

F

Front Squat 2x5, 3x3
Hang Power Snatch (still trying to learn the snatch) 2x5, 3x3
Incline Bench (switching to weighted dips soon) 5x5
EZ Bar Curls 5x5

After this I do 15 minutes of high-intensity cardio, high-rep oly lifts or GPP, and then an optional 20 minutes of low-intensity cardio, which I tend to skip, but I do it usually once per week.

Why not adductors? What will the adductor machine not do that front squats, back squats, deadlifts, cleans, and snatches won't do? I do include calves usually, just not in this particular mesocycle.

pullups · Oct 23, 2005

9cyclops9 said:
Strongmen only go to failure because it is required by their sport. But as far as I know, most of them don't go to failure with their gym lifts, only with their event training.

My routine right now looks like this:

M

Back Squat 2x5, 3x3
Full Squat Clean 2x5, 3x3
Military Press 2x5, 3x3
Weighted Pull-up 2x5, 3x3

W

Deadlift 5x5
One-arm DB Power Snatch 2x5, 3x3
Bench Press 5x5
Bent Row 5x5

F

Front Squat 2x5, 3x3
Hang Power Snatch (still trying to learn the snatch) 2x5, 3x3
Incline Bench (switching to weighted dips soon) 5x5
EZ Bar Curls 5x5

After this I do 15 minutes of high-intensity cardio, high-rep oly lifts or GPP, and then an optional 20 minutes of low-intensity cardio, which I tend to skip, but I do it usually once per week.

Why not adductors? What will the adductor machine not do that front squats, back squats, deadlifts, cleans, and snatches won't do? I do include calves usually, just not in this particular mesocycle.

adductors (i think thats the inner part near ur groin) aids in exploding off the ground mroe so then ur adbductors (outter part, in the hip area i think may have mixed up the two), glutes, hammys, and quads which is important in getting the initial lift in deads and extremly important in snatchs and cleans they help u lift the weight quicker and get under it quicker. the adductor machine hits this muscle specifily, its like hammer curls and preacher curls.

quick question tho how long have u been lifting and more importantly how long have u been on this workout?

pullups · Oct 23, 2005

o and i go one elite fitness alot and there are alot of strongmen there that compete and they go low rep, heavey weight, forced lifts in the gym as well. as u sed train strong be strong. powerlifters and strongmen are worlds apart.

9cyclops9 · Oct 23, 2005

im2manly said:
adductors (i think thats the inner part near ur groin) aids in exploding off the ground mroe so then ur adbductors (outter part, in the hip area i think may have mixed up the two), glutes, hammys, and quads which is important in getting the initial lift in deads and extremly important in snatchs and cleans they help u lift the weight quicker and get under it quicker. the adductor machine hits this muscle specifily, its like hammer curls and preacher curls.

quick question tho how long have u been lifting and more importantly how long have u been on this workout?

This brings up another thing. In order to be explosive, you have to lift explosively. Doing controlled reps on an adductor machine may make the adductors stronger or bigger, but they won't make them more explosive. Besides, I don't think explosive reps would be a good idea on an adductor machine. Sounds kind of painful and dangerous. I must say I've never heard of a coach recommending the adductor machine for what you're saying. But I'll admit I could be wrong on this, it's another thing I'll have to look up.

9cyclops9 · Oct 23, 2005

im2manly said:
o and i go one elite fitness alot and there are alot of strongmen there that compete and they go low rep, heavey weight, forced lifts in the gym as well. as u sed train strong be strong. powerlifters and strongmen are worlds apart.

True. Training for strongman is ridiculously varied, there are many approaches. It's kind of confusing.

prince Albert · Oct 24, 2005

Interesting read mate,only clicked on a few of the links,will check some of the others later while hanging.

Glad your trainings going well,things i agree,disagree with

Yes big compound movements all the way with only a small amount of isolation work if your goal is mass.

Going to failure depends,i always stop at the point were i no i cannot get another full rep out,in the past 20rep rest pause squatting is really training past the point of failure,very brutal but i gained very well of it.

Are squats and deads essential,well depends on the individual,a guy i no who has one of the biggest thickest backs does no deadlifting at all,he's tried but it doesn't feel right for him,he can row some silly weight and is a very good squatter.

Everyone should give the big compound movements ago but after a decent amount of time if they still don't feel right drop it for a more productive movement,i benched for years because everyone said you got to bench,now i do weighted parallel bar dips as my main chest movement followed by incline d/b press and progress has steadily gone up.

Some of the really tall guys have a hard time squatting because of height,if you ever see arnie in pumping iron squatting he just doesn't look comfortable doing it and his legs were known to be a weak point compared to his upper body.

Lets be honest cardio sucks,so whichever type you can do consistantly is key i think,i carn't get away with HIIT,it may be the better choice but i prefer low/mod intensity,i can go on the treadmill and do 45mins while reading and the time flys by.

The point you make about people not eating enough fruit and veg is a good one,everyone even none trainers should aim for a min of 5 portions of fruit and veg a day.The G.I issue gets alot of people knickers in a twist and people would be better of forgetting about it,the amount of times ive seen someone say oh you shouldn't eat that its the wrong GI is just silly,if you are trying to get bodyfat down to a really low level then yes it is important but for normal day to day forget about it.

Got to say that girl has got a perfect bod,love women with small tight waists.

goldmember · Oct 24, 2005

Cy,

I think I agreed with every word you have typed. I have read (and re-read) Dinosaur Training, and plenty of Matt Furey's products including his fighting [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/mosdvd.htm]DVD[/words]'s. I hold bodybuilding as a desired "side-effect" of my athletic training, as you sort of do. If I ever have any questions about this stuff, you're my go-to guy!

9cyclops9 · Oct 24, 2005

prince Albert said:
Going to failure depends,i always stop at the point were i no i cannot get another full rep out,in the past 20rep rest pause squatting is really training past the point of failure,very brutal but i gained very well of it.

Ah, that's one place where I agree with failure. 20-rep squats work very well, I do them occasionally for a couple weeks.

Are squats and deads essential,well depends on the individual,a guy i no who has one of the biggest thickest backs does no deadlifting at all,he's tried but it doesn't feel right for him,he can row some silly weight and is a very good squatter.

I can agree with this too. There's a guy at T-Nation that has been training for years and is ridiculously huge, but over the years he's gravitated more towards Hammer Strength machines, particularly the leg press. He's still huge and crazy strong, he's just found a preference over the years.

Everyone should give the big compound movements ago but after a decent amount of time if they still don't feel right drop it for a more productive movement,i benched for years because everyone said you got to bench,now i do weighted parallel bar dips as my main chest movement followed by incline d/b press and progress has steadily gone up.

I'd still call those compound movements. They're still using more than one joint, and so they're using a group of muscles rather than isolation.

Some of the really tall guys have a hard time squatting because of height,if you ever see arnie in pumping iron squatting he just doesn't look comfortable doing it and his legs were known to be a weak point compared to his upper body.

I agree, leverage can make a big difference. But I think they should still bust their ass in the squat rack. In the grip world, hand size makes a huge difference in how hard certain feats are. But you still see guys who have overcome that because they wanted it badly enough.

Lets be honest cardio sucks,so whichever type you can do consistantly is key i think,i carn't get away with HIIT,it may be the better choice but i prefer low/mod intensity,i can go on the treadmill and do 45mins while reading and the time flys by.

This is true. I believe that if someone hates doing a certain thing, they're not going to put a whole lot into it, so they'd be better off replacing it with something they don't hate so much. Doing something different is better than going half-assed on something else.

The point you make about people not eating enough fruit and veg is a good one,everyone even none trainers should aim for a min of 5 portions of fruit and veg a day.The G.I issue gets alot of people knickers in a twist and people would be better of forgetting about it,the amount of times ive seen someone say oh you shouldn't eat that its the wrong GI is just silly,if you are trying to get bodyfat down to a really low level then yes it is important but for normal day to day forget about it.

EXACTLY. I mean, we learn this stuff in 1st grade. Eat your fruits and veggies. I don't know why it has become a bad thing to some people. And think about it, I'm saying to eat something that TASTES GOOD. I think fruit is delicious!

Got to say that girl has got a perfect bod,love women with small tight waists.

I agree man. There's more of her here:

http://johnnycrosslin.com/models/recent/marzia/marzia.htm

When you click a pic, change the number at the end of the url, there are actually almost 50 pics of her there.

sikdogg · Oct 24, 2005

im2manly said:
...
1.) Distance running in my mind is far superior to sprints in fat loss. Sprints on the other are far superior in building strenght (As i understand it it is because of the type of muscle fibers used). As such when I cut weight, i run for long distance because it sheds fat, good for your heart, and increases [words=http://fleshlight.sjv.io/c/348327/302851/4702]stamina[/words]. when i bulk i sprint because this tends to increase my leg strength, speed, and vertical leap and helps in some lifts such as powercleans (which i do when i bulk and when i cut cuz that shit makes u sweat like crazy)...

Distance running burns more fat than sprints while your doing the exercizes simply because you are doing it for a much longer period of time. Sprints on the other hand extends the fat burning process much longer after the actual exercize than distance running does. So someone who does HIIT for 30 minutes can lose just as much, if not more, fat than someone jogging/running for an hour. If i recall correctly, most studies i've read claim that sprints also work the heart better than distance running but does not increase your VO2 MAX like distance running does.

pullups · Oct 24, 2005

sikdogg said:
Distance running burns more fat than sprints while your doing the exercizes simply because you are doing it for a much longer period of time. Sprints on the other hand extends the fat burning process much longer after the actual exercize than distance running does. So someone who does HIIT for 30 minutes can lose just as much, if not more, fat than someone jogging/running for an hour. If i recall correctly, most studies i've read claim that sprints also work the heart better than distance running but does not increase your VO2 MAX like distance running does.

the thing about sprints about HIIT is that they burn glycogen before fat, and u run the risk of burning muscle, when ur burning fat you want your heart rate at a certain rate too high doesnt necessairly means it burns fat better.

crazyed27 · Oct 24, 2005

sikdogg said:
Distance running burns more fat than sprints while your doing the exercizes simply because you are doing it for a much longer period of time. Sprints on the other hand extends the fat burning process much longer after the actual exercize than distance running does. So someone who does HIIT for 30 minutes can lose just as much, if not more, fat than someone jogging/running for an hour. If i recall correctly, most studies i've read claim that sprints also work the heart better than distance running but does not increase your VO2 MAX like distance running does.

Nice post!

I got to say I played a lot of outdoor 3wall handball this year on an oversized court. My legs got thicker, My quickness is better than ever and I got extremly cut. I say all this came from handball. I got the best of both worlds here. Sprints and long distance. I would play for 4 to 6 hours 2 to 3 times a week. Though I did lose a lot of upper body strength, due to not lifting all summer, but not size. My abs really got defined, and all the chicks walking through the park noticed my physique on the court. Hell some of them would even stop just to watch us. Most of them were watching my body, or so it looked like it form there eyes, and plenty noticed my flaccid penis bouncing around in basketball shorts with boxers! But IMO if you can find a sport that uses explosive movements combined with sprints and times of steady movement you can combine a great heart workout with an increase your VO2 MAX, and have a great adreniline rush all at the same time.

quijjiboo · Oct 24, 2005

Sorry guys distance running jacks up cortisol and lowers testosterone, not exactly good for someone wanting lots of LBathmate. Thats the whole motivation behind HIIT is to run for a short enough duration to avoid catabolism, while intense enough to burn calories and train the cardiovascular system.

crazyed27 · Oct 24, 2005

quijjiboo said:
Sorry guys distance running jacks up cortisol and lowers testosterone, not exactly good for someone wanting lots of LBathmate. Thats the whole motivation behind HIIT is to run for a short enough duration to avoid catabolism, while intense enough to burn calories and train the cardiovascular system.

So you would say sets of wind sprints would be the better option, if your trying to gain mass? I would agree, but then again I've never made it past 180lbs! Though sprints really build up my thighs and glutes. They also work the crap out of my lungs and heart.

pullups · Oct 24, 2005

quijjiboo said:
Sorry guys distance running jacks up cortisol and lowers testosterone, not exactly good for someone wanting lots of LBathmate. Thats the whole motivation behind HIIT is to run for a short enough duration to avoid catabolism, while intense enough to burn calories and train the cardiovascular system.

you are kidding me right? walking/distance running (not full speed but more of a jog) is the best for burning fat. Dude you gotta have a link from a credible source because basically what you said is blapsHydromaxey (spelling?) to the body building world. Running hard for a long duration might due that but the type of conditioning i am talking about is the best to BURN FAT not necessiarly lose weight. big difference

crazyed27 · Oct 24, 2005

im2manly said:
you are kidding me right? walking/distance running (not full speed but more of a jog) is the best for burning fat. Dude you gotta have a link from a credible source because basically what you said is blapsHydromaxey (spelling?) to the body building world. Running hard for a long duration might due that but the type of conditioning i am talking about is the best to BURN FAT not necessiarly lose weight. big difference

I think he meant that LONG distant running would be negitive, like 15 miles a day. Not a 30min jog or brisk walk. When was the last time you saw a marathon runner or a trialthlete with a solid musclar body? Sprinters are very lean and musclar, anywhere up to a guy who competes in the 800 meter. Anything longer than the 800 meter the athletes look frail and weak, for the most part.

9cyclops9 · Oct 24, 2005

im2manly said:
you are kidding me right? walking/distance running (not full speed but more of a jog) is the best for burning fat. Dude you gotta have a link from a credible source because basically what you said is blapsHydromaxey (spelling?) to the body building world. Running hard for a long duration might due that but the type of conditioning i am talking about is the best to BURN FAT not necessiarly lose weight. big difference

You've got it backwards. High-intensity is much more efficient for fat-burning. Read this article:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=178E42F99D5DA0DB77431095018E7C67.hydra?id=461325

From the article:

Shugart: Good point. I'm going to throw out some very general questions now and let you guys duke it out. Here we go. What's better for the average guy wanting to be lean and muscular? HIIT (high intensity interval training) or long bouts of jogging at one pace (low-intensity)?

Staley: Clearly the former. There's really no debate on that. And you don't need a university degree or advanced physiology textbooks to understand why this is so: when you expose your body to repeated long-duration excursions, your body wants to weigh less in order to become more efficient at doing what you're asking it to do. And the easiest way for your body to weigh less is to catabolize muscle (which of course, weighs more than fat).

Shugart: What do you think, Coach Snippy?

Alessi: If they're a qualified HIIT trainee, that is, under the age of 35, without a pre-existing heart condition or family history and have at least six months prior training experience, then it becomes a simple energy game (calories in, calories out). For that, HIIT burns more calories in less time.

Shugart: HIIT or jogging, Thib?

Thibaudeau: Well, the only thing you have to do is compare the physique of a sprinter to that of a marathoner. Which one is leaner and more muscular? The sprinter of course! In fact, sprinters, as a group, have a better body than 95% of all the people spending hour after hour in the gym. This is all the more impressive considering that most sprinters will strength train three, maybe four times per week using only basic movements such as the bench press, squat, the Olympic lifts and hamstring work.

Of course, one could argue that the top sprinters are genetically gifted for leanness, strength and muscle. However, put the same guys on a hefty regimen of long distance running and chances are the quality of their physiques will vastly decrease.

This is not to say that low-intensity aerobic work is to be avoided. However, it shouldn't be abused. Let's face it, as T-men we like to shout high and loud that aerobic work isn't manly. But the fact is that aerobic work does offer several benefits, including the shift toward a better lipid profile, a lowered risk of cardiovascular diseases and hypertension, as well as fat loss. So aerobic work isn't the Devil; however, it's not the fastest route towards a muscular and lean physique.

In my opinion, long sprints, 200-400m (even 800m) with short rest intervals are best when it comes to losing fat while minimizing the potential for muscle loss. Most people wanting a great physique should engage in this type of activity. Furthermore, a recent study concluded that 400m running actually involves the aerobic energy system and lead to improvement in max VO2 similar to long, slow-pace aerobic work.

That being said, slow-pace aerobic work isn't to be discounted as it offers several health benefits. I know that health is always something that bores the athletes to no end, but good health is important: you can't improve if you're in the hospital can you?

Later:

Now, another thing that sickens me is when people talk about walking to promote fat loss. How many times have I seen some out of shape guy (or gal) walk twenty minutes on the treadmill expecting to lose fat like crazy? Did you know that washing your car, dusting your furniture and playing pool has approximately the same caloric expenditure as walking (about four calories per minute)? Housework will burn more fat than walking! Try this one when your wife complains about doing all the work around the house!

In physical training, like with most things in life, what you get out of it is proportional to what you put in. If your heart rate increases a lot, is maintained at a high level for a relatively long time, and you use a lot of energy, you'll get some fat loss, conditioning and health benefits. In that regard, intense weight training with short rest intervals can actually have a better effect than walking and even jogging. Strength training alone will not give you the same cardiovascular effect as intense cardio or energy system work. It won't get you ready to run the Boston marathon, but it will give you significant health and fat loss benefits.

Now, not all strength training exercises will lead to same energy expenditure. For example, a one-arm concentration curl won't make you use as much energy as a power clean, push press, squat, or deadlift! Basically, the more muscles involved in an exercise, the more energy will be used: the bigger the engine, the more fuel you use!

Part 2:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=178E42F99D5DA0DB77431095018E7C67.hydra?id=461524

Thibaudeau: Best form of cardio? An evening with Trish Stratus after a triple dose of Tribex! Seriously though, the best form of energy system work is the one you'll actually do! I could say that 400m sprinting with very short rest intervals is the best way to shed the fat. However, how many people will actually have the guts to stick with 400m sprints? Not many! It’s just about the hardest thing you can do as far as physical training is concerned (a close second is sets of twenty reps on the squat or deadlift). So even if it’s great, if you don’t stick with it, it won’t work.

Shugart: Okay, a person is trying to lose fat. Should he do cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach?

....

Staley: Hmmm, I'm starving, half-asleep, my joints feel like they have sand in them....um, no, not a good time for cardio!

Look, seriously, when you do it is secondary to doing it in the first place, right? Also, isn't that idea predicated on the theory that if your glycogen supplies are low from an overnight fast that your body is more likely to go after stored bodyfat for fuel? Well, the only way your glycogen will be low enough to accomplish that would be if you're low or no carbing. And if you're low or no carbing, then your glycogen is always
low, and you can do your cardio later in the day when you feel at least half alive!

My good friend Alwyn Cosgrove has a great argument for why morning cardio on an empty stomach is a faulty idea: everyone always extols the value of eating every three hours to prevent catabolism; so if this is true, why would you do hard exercise after an eight hour fast? I mean, it's either one way or the other, right?

Dr. Lowery: Truthfully, I do cardio in the morning. A thinner, ectomorphic guy looking to harden up shouldn't though. He'd be better served by time under the weights while drinking protein and carbs throughout. I tend to favor fasted treadmill work because I've seen firsthand how much more dramatic fat oxidation can be in this state during lab experiences.

The liver is mostly depleted of stored carbohydrate (glycogen reserves approximate just 90g which keeps us alive at night), there's a natural diurnal release of GH upon rising, and even cortisol is higher upon waking. This latter fact is dangerous for muscle loss but actually facilitates lipolysis (fat breakdown). Admittedly, I've been experimenting with about five grams of glutamine and even about ten grams of protein in this otherwise "fasted" pre-breakfast state. I do fear cortisol and hope to counteract any unnecessary catabolism without interfering with lipolysis.

Note: doing morning cardio after having some protein powder and coffee (for energy) has become pretty popular at T-Nation since this was published 2.5 years ago. Dr. Lowery recommends it very highly and a lot of people swear by it.

I'd say that high-intensity cardio is pretty well supported by experts, whether bulking or cutting.

pullups · Oct 24, 2005

dude experts on T-nation maybe. the fact is that your heart rate needs to be in a certain zone to burn fat, sprints attack glycogen first because they need a QUICK ENERGY SOURCE a jog on the other hand reserves glycogen for a type of back up fuel, thus more directly hitting the fat cells. and dude there talking about buring 4 cals a min, jesus thats like 1mph. From my experience what has helped me shed 40lbs has been jogging at a comfortable pace, with intervals of sprints (because for a short period of time you can draw on glycogen and fat at the same time, but once ur heart rate reaches a certain level it attacks the glycogen because it thinks its sprinting and wants a quick energy source) now ur in college right? so am i, take a nutrition or human physiology class and ull see which is better for burning fat

9cyclops9 · Oct 24, 2005

im2manly said:
dude experts on T-nation maybe. the fact is that your heart rate needs to be in a certain zone to burn fat, sprints attack glycogen first because they need a QUICK ENERGY SOURCE a jog on the other hand reserves glycogen for a type of back up fuel, thus more directly hitting the fat cells. and dude there talking about buring 4 cals a min, jesus thats like 1mph. From my experience what has helped me shed 40lbs has been jogging at a comfortable pace, with intervals of sprints (because for a short period of time you can draw on glycogen and fat at the same time, but once ur heart rate reaches a certain level it attacks the glycogen because it thinks its sprinting and wants a quick energy source) now ur in college right? so am i, take a nutrition or human physiology class and ull see which is better for burning fat

So...Christian Thibaudeau, Dr. Lonnie Lowery, Charles Staley, and Don Alessi don't know what they're talking about because they're "experts on T-Nation?" Some of the most recognized names in strength training don't know what they're talking about? Why do so many people have it in for T-Nation? I mean, they offer some of the best training information on the net for free, so what about it makes people's panties wad up? Some of the most recognized and successful experts in the business (Chad Waterbury, Charles Staley, Christian Thibaudeau, Joe DeFranco, Dan John, Charles Poliquin, Dave Tate just to name a few) write for T-Nation. What makes it such a bad thing?

And why would they purposely give bad information on cardio? What would they have to gain by that? Your post just doesn't make any sense. Please explain the anti-T-Nationism.

Anyway, if you insist on links from other sites, I can accomodate you. This is just what popped up after a quick Google search. Not all relate to fat loss, some relate to increased athletic performance. Notice how several of them open with something like this: "HIIT is well-known to be superior for fat burning."

http://www.musclemedia.com/training/hiit.asp
http://davedraper.com/hiit-cardio-training.html
http://www.youronlinefitness.com/Fi...articles/hiit_and_other_interval_training.htm
http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/HIITvsET.html
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/HIIT.html
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=165
http://www.sportsci.org/jour/0101/cf.htm

pullups · Oct 25, 2005

i want to see a impartial study, because these sites are recommending HIIT and then tell u its better for fat burning because its proves themselves right. tell you what I am going to try HIIT in my routine, do you have a link for how i can get started properly

9cyclops9 · Oct 25, 2005

Those links I just provided have all the info you need to get started.

I'm wondering, what possible reason would they have for saying HIIT is better? It isn't like they're selling you anything. If they felt the need to be right, wouldn't they just promote which one was right?

A few of those articles mention studies. Look them up. The Tabata study is particularly interesting.

LambdaCalc · Oct 25, 2005

I think I will give HIIT a shot as well. It's about time for a change anyway.

You had me at squating twice your body weigth in 3-months.

millionman · Oct 25, 2005

HIIT, which is a relative term to begin with as sprinting is individualized based off of the individuals conditioning. Sprint training is the best and most EFFICIENT way to drop body fat, increase VO2 max, and imrpove lipid profiles accordingly. Best meaning that it accomplishes all three of these directives in a 15-20 minute session, unlike the 30-45 minute marathons most people utilize. The issue is for people wanting to drop BF preserve lean mass and improve cardiovascular conditioning intense sessions are the best option.

After a certain point glycogen stores have been tapped and the oxygen depletion becomes significant enough to where the action becomes an aerobic activity, because the system then becomes less dependent on muscle glycogen and more dependent on stored energy for continued efforts. This is what makes sprint training better than distance or what most people would call "cardio" sessions as it trains both energy systems very efficiently. I hope this adds to the discussion here as I have used a two day sprint training approach, along with a 15-20 minute "cardio" session and have seen tremendous imrpovements in conditioning and fat loss percentage. The "cardio" day is to facilitate recovery mainly, and it also keeps the trainee from overtraining and overreaching. That's a very solid method if you choose to use it, but I would hardly ever reccomend a long duration session as the primary method of energy system work, unless on an extremely extremely low caloric intake, and then it's risky because of possible lean mass loss.

pullups · Oct 25, 2005

hey 9c9 , i think i am going to try this. I think the main reason that i am/was so perisistent that long distance was better was because of classes, what every one has told me, and personal success with it. anyway, I will try HIIT in place of my regular cardio. What would u suggest as a routine? just a quick layout i really havent had time to read all the links becuase of classes and projects. thanks

9cyclops9 · Oct 25, 2005

im2manly said:
hey 9c9 , i think i am going to try this. I think the main reason that i am/was so perisistent that long distance was better was because of classes, what every one has told me, and personal success with it. anyway, I will try HIIT in place of my regular cardio. What would u suggest as a routine? just a quick layout i really havent had time to read all the links becuase of classes and projects. thanks

I think that both methods have merit, as millionman pointed out. Doing sprints 4 times a week could easily lead to overtraining if your conditioning isn't up to the task. The main selling point for me with HIIT is that the sessions are shorter (due to higher intensity) and therefore you're less likely to go into catabolism.

This is from http://www.youronlinefitness.com/Fi...articles/hiit_and_other_interval_training.htm

A good intermediate interval training program could consist of a jog-run program. You can warm-up with a five minute jog and then run for 1 minute, and then back to jogging for 1 minute, and repeat for as many times as you can. When you run, you don't need to sprint, but a good run is what you are looking for. If you want to add more intensity you can do a 30/30 split of a 30 second jog and a 30 second run. Or a 30 second jog and a 1 minute run.

pullups · Oct 25, 2005

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to 9cyclops9 again.

thanks bro for the quick response, i just talked to a personal trainer (student) he said he started at 11% body fat and after HIIT he was down to 5% that was my selling point because the lower ur body fat the harder it is to lose body fat. that and im tired of jogging 70 minutes a day. I really do hope this works i think im gonna go wit the 30/30 approarch for 30 mins on a elipitical machine

pullups · Oct 25, 2005

jesus christ 9c9 you coulda told me it was gonna be so dam hard lol....lol i come here saying im gonna do 30 second jog 30 second sprint for 30 mins and i end up barely getting past 10 mins...but ill tell you what in those 10 mins the elipitical machine said i burned 370 cals (when i usually do it my way i burn about 250 in 10 mins) and i was sweating my ass off. I think for now on im going to do 40 mins regular running (like i used) in morning on a empty stomach and ill try lol to do 15 mins HIIT after working out....I gotta say bro, i think you might be right here.

quijjiboo · Oct 25, 2005

crazyed27 said:
I think he meant that LONG distant running would be negitive, like 15 miles a day. Not a 30min jog or brisk walk. When was the last time you saw a marathon runner or a trialthlete with a solid musclar body? Sprinters are very lean and musclar, anywhere up to a guy who competes in the 800 meter. Anything longer than the 800 meter the athletes look frail and weak, for the most part.

Thats exactly it the proof is right there.. I've never seen a sprinter that wasn't ripped to shreds. Then again marathon runners are ripped, but they just look like skeletons hehe

9cyclops9 · Oct 25, 2005

im2manly said:
jesus christ 9c9 you coulda told me it was gonna be so dam hard lol....lol i come here saying im gonna do 30 second jog 30 second sprint for 30 mins and i end up barely getting past 10 mins...but ill tell you what in those 10 mins the elipitical machine said i burned 370 cals (when i usually do it my way i burn about 250 in 10 mins) and i was sweating my ass off. I think for now on im going to do 40 mins regular running (like i used) in morning on a empty stomach and ill try lol to do 15 mins HIIT after working out....I gotta say bro, i think you might be right here.

lol

When I saw you were going to try it for half an hour I though...holy crap, this guy's insane.

Glad you liked it. Try going for one minute and one minute, it's a bit easier. Not much though.

pullups · Oct 25, 2005

i guess i owe quijjiboo an apology too, LOOKS like u guys are right

crazyed27 · Oct 25, 2005

im2manly said:
jesus christ 9c9 you coulda told me it was gonna be so dam hard lol....lol i come here saying im gonna do 30 second jog 30 second sprint for 30 mins and i end up barely getting past 10 mins...but ill tell you what in those 10 mins the elipitical machine said i burned 370 cals (when i usually do it my way i burn about 250 in 10 mins) and i was sweating my ass off. I think for now on im going to do 40 mins regular running (like i used) in morning on a empty stomach and ill try lol to do 15 mins HIIT after working out....I gotta say bro, i think you might be right here.

Wind sprints are insane, you found out the hard way that they are not to be taken lightly! IMO they might be the best overall lower body and cardio workout that there is hands down! Though it is a bitch to get yourself motovatied to do these solo. That is why I play handball, because if I want to win the match I'm forced to do wind sprints, and my glutes and legs have grown due to this. Plus my body fat has gone down, my endurence has gone up, all and all I'm in better shape than if I just lifted and jogged no question about it.

crazyed27 · Oct 25, 2005

quijjiboo said:
Thats exactly it the proof is right there.. I've never seen a sprinter that wasn't ripped to shreds. Then again marathon runners are ripped, but they just look like skeletons hehe

So true!

9cyclops9 · Oct 25, 2005

im2manly said:
i guess i owe quijjiboo an apology too, LOOKS like u guys are right

I can't speak for quijjiboo, but I don't see any need for apologies. This thread is about learning from each other.

millionman · Oct 25, 2005

A regimen I prescribe a good bit is a 30 second sprint with a minute rest, and in the coming weeks decrease the amount of rest. This is a good place to start since the workout would be challenging but not totally wipe out the CNS, nor cause you to fall down a flight of steps. Take it easy to start and then step it up as it becomes less difficult, just like you would with any weight program you progress by manipulating different variables (rest period, level of difficulty, and total time).

crazyed27 · Oct 25, 2005

im2manly said:
i guess i owe quijjiboo an apology too, LOOKS like u guys are right

You can read all you want and listen to people all you want, but until you actually go out there and have first hand experience, you'll never know how it will effect you! The more personal experience you have the more knowledgeable you will become!

LambdaCalc · Oct 26, 2005

9cy,

do you use the SFM from t-nation?

As an aside, I guess you pretty much need a trainer/experienced person watching you to learn the Olympic lifts. I tried the hanging snatch with some light weight and it felt pretty awkward.

millionman · Oct 26, 2005

LAMBDA, I would strongly recommend learning from an experience olympic lifting coach, but since that's really really rare, you can usually learn them over time and watching video of them being performed. I think Coach John Davies has them on his site, or you could always do a GOOGLE search for them. I learned how to do them from an Oly coach when I first started lifting, and it's the best way to learn but as I said you can usually assimilate it all together from video and instructions with diagrams similar to those found here for Penis Enlargement.

9cyclops9 · Oct 26, 2005

I haven't used that program yet, but I may at some point. Right now I'm using Christian Thibaudeau's Renaissance Body Development.

I've learned the olympic lifts on my own, but I did a lot of reading and video watching on my own first. I'd suggest the book and videotape by Jim ScHydromaxitz from Ironmind if you want to learn. You probably won't have flawless form, but then very few people do, and you could always get it checked by a coach later down the road.

pullups · Oct 26, 2005

i would suggest power cleans instead of hang cleans, uses more muscles, and can improve ur explosion more. Cleans take alot of technique its bascially a deadlift shurg upright row and squat all in one

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