Help Support Animal Rights!

[orbital]

Hey all,

A few days ago I was talking to my mum about an ad for beef and how I used to be a vegetarian. She was saying she would like to be, and before the night was out I was looking online about animal rights and vegetarian recipes. I visited Penis EnlargementTA's webiste at www.peta.com and forced myself to watch some of the videos on the web page. I was completely appalled and sickened by what I saw.

Check out the "Horror at Agriprocessors" and tell me that it doesn't bother you. I watched videos featuring pigs that were beaten with metal rods and had poles inserted in their asses for no reason by abusive handlers. Later in the video, 2 workers are shown beating the head of a pig multiple times with a heavy wrench. The pig doesn't die, but its bleeding heavily. Then, one worker begins to cut the leg and skin off the still living pig! Some pigs that aren't growing fast enough are subjected to a process called "thumping", where they are picked up by their back legs and slammed into concrete floors over and over again to kill them. Many of them dont' die immediately but instead die slowly as they are discarded in a pile on the floor. All of this is from one (admittedly heaviy edited for effect) video. There are dozens on Penis EnlargementTA's website, and they are only an organization with an annual budget of 25 million. This is nothing compared to the multi-billion dollar industries they are up against.

I don't understand why anyone would think this kind of behavior is OK or even necessary. I propose federal legislation that eliminates the massive factory farms that breed this kind of abuse. I want stricter legislation (and in some cases, any legislation at all) regarding animal rights. Aren't we morally obligated to treat the animals we dominate reasonably? How can we not feel for their obvious fear, pain, and suffering?

I don't personally endorse all of Penis EnlargementTA's objectives. For example, they believe that animals should not be used for food or clothing at all. This is too radical for me, even though I'm going to become a vegetarian because of what I saw. But we can still improve the conditions of where we get all of our hormone and antibiotic-injected meat. Check out sources like Whole Food Markets and organic and/or open ranged meat and poultry producers.

I am going to become a vegetarian, but you don't have to become a vegetarian to support more humane treatment of animals. The abuse of animals that huge factory farmers get away with every single day is completely immoral and disgusting. Please help.

Any feedback?

 

[penguinsfan]

I find Penis EnlargementTA to be far too radical for my tastes. They even aim to eventually ban pet ownership. Seriously, is Fido going to be better off rooming the woods undomesticating his lifestyle or curled up at the foot of your recliner?

That being said, there is no doubt that the instances of such abuse in the meat industry need to be stopped. I don't think it fairly represents the majority or the norm. My brother-in-law is a vegetarian that used to work in a slaughter house in his teens and 20s and he was just turned off by the industry as a whole, but not because of any abuse. He never saw anything like the videos capture, but just couldn't stand the smell, sights, and environments.

You do bring up some good points about the meat industry and factory farms. I'm not an expert on it, but check out this site talking about the bureaucratic draconian proposals our government is looking at putting on small farmers, which will ultimately force them to sell-off to the factory farms:

http://www.nonais.org/

 

[TomdW]

This has bothered me since I was young. I am a vegetarian but just because I think that it is a healthier option nowadays. I believe that when people treat animals in such a way they should be dealt with in the same manner as if they had treated a human. I can't believe that there are people out there that would treat animals like this and IMO they are the scum of the earth. Chicken shit mother fuckers that can't deal with life and have to take it out on animals.

Slaughter houses are basically torture and murder houses but we don't see it that way because we see them as 'only animals'. That is typical human arrogance. They feel pain and they suffer just as we can. It is just plain wrong. How can any human walk around feeling good about themselves when they eat meat that comes from slaughter houses? They pretend to themselves that it doesn't happen because all they see is a neatly packaged piece of flesh in the supermarket. Ignorance is bliss.

 

[TomdW]

I've just watched some of those videos. I cryed. This is what is wrong with the world.

 

[MAXAMEYES]

I agree that no creature should ever be tortured or abused. But I personally can't see putting my own time and energy into saving animals when living, breathing, totally innocent human beings are being horrifically tortured, mutilated and debased every day. This happens all over the world, but even more disgustingly; it happens here in the States on an all too frequent basis.
I just can't cry over livestock when children, babies, infants are raped, tortured and killed every day. My personal belief is that human beings owe their greatest loyalty to other human beings first and then should spread their energy and effort out into the growing world.

 

[jubei]

mademeyes (spell); i agree with you to a certain extent, but lets remember that people have voices and outlets with which to notify authorities of these terrible doings. Animals do not.

From a personal point of view, i an definately not a vegetarian and enjoy meat as human beings were designed to do. I also have no problem with the killing of animals for food. What i do have a huge problem with is anything that is inhumane, wheather it be in the process of killing animals for food or if it is just some sick bastard that for some reason has to make himself feel bigger by picking on defenseless animals.
I couldnt bring myself to watch the peta videos just because im such an animal lover, I have six dogs.

 

[TomdW]

Maxameyes. Your point of view is what leads to this kind of thing. If you value life then you should value animal life just as highly as human life. I'm sorry I don't believe for one moment that human life is any more important than animal life and if there were videos of slaughter houses like this involving humans then it would be an absolute outrage.

At the end of the day animals are not going around slaughtering us and the animals that are suffering are unable to speak up about it in any way. We are the ones with the power on this planet and we are the ones that cause 90% of our own misery as well. We bring the suffering on to ourselves but the animals do not. We, as the dominant, concious beings on this planet, have not only a responsibility to other humans but we have a responsibility to be caring to all life bar none and none more important than any other.

Jubie. I have to strongly disagree with you on some points. So, let me get this straight. You are an animal lover that owns six dogs and yet you think that it's OK to kill and eat animals. That doesn't sound like love worth having. It seems like love that only applies when it suits you. Also, if you want to go on eating meat then I think that it's your duty to watch those videos.

Secondly, where is your evidence that the human is designed to eat meat? In fact anatomically and physiologically, humans are just not meant to be carnivores or omnivores. The long, complicated digestive tract is designed for the slow absorption of complex and stable plant food. Carnivores such as alligators or lions have short, simple bowels to allow for minimum transit time of unstable, dead animal food. Their intestinal microorganisms are different from humans', too.

On the other hand, starch digestion in humans is quite elaborate, whereas carnivores eat little or no starch. If we were carnivores then we'd be sweating through our tongue instead of through our skin. Flesh eaters have sharp claws and teeth which are designed for tearing apart freshly killed animals. If we are really meat eaters then why do we cook our meat. We are the only creature that does that and in doing so we burn off all of the nutrients that were present in the meat. That said, even if we did eat our meat raw we wouldn't absorb any goodness from it since our system is not designed for it.

If you want to convince me that you were supposed to eat meat naturally then please go out and kill a cow with your bare hands and then tear it apart and eat it raw. That is what a natural carnivore or omnivore would do. We are simply not naturally equipped to eat meat naturally both internally and externally. If you are not satisfied with the cow experiment then by all means please try and catch a wild chicken with you bare hands (something you will never be able to do) and then rip it apart and eat it raw.

It's nice to simply go with the flow as humans and just accept the points of view of the masses about what we are even when they do crazy things like drinking another animals milk throughout their lifetimes. Yes, again we are the only creature to do that. Weird. Don't get me started on the stupid amounts of indigestible protein contained within cows milk. But, well, if everyone else does it then it must be OK. Right?

Add to all of this the fact that we are conscious and that we can understand and empathize with the animals that we kill and now you can see that humans really are on the wrong side of nature and, if you want to put it this way, God.

At the end of the day if you want to be ignorant and blissful then go ahead but don't be ignorant and active. Because, as Goethe put it, that is the most scary thing of all.

P.s. We beat you again today at home in the rugby. dig dig.

 

[MAXAMEYES]

Sorry Tom, I've just got to disagree with your basic premise that an animal's life is equal to a human's life. As the father of two boys and a guy who has spent a great portion of his life teaching and mentoring kids from all walks of life I actually find equating an animal, any animal, that, left to itself may trample, abandon or even consume its own offspring with an innocent and completely helpless human infant somewhat insulting.

What I was advocating was this: If an individual feels a moral obligation to champion the rights of a helpless, defenseless creature then I truly believe that the much greater obligation is to alleviate the suffering and death of human children and infants first and foremost.

Here's a hypothetical question to consider and perhaps reflect a bit more deeply on the subject as I've presented it: Your son, your three year old son is playing in your yard when he is viciously attacked by a stray dog. You try everything you know to get the dog to release your screaming, bleeding son, when you come to the horrific realization that; if the attack does not end immediately your son will die from his wounds.

Here's my question; at that instant, is your sons life worth killing that dog? Or do you allow that dog to consume your sons flesh because it is the dogs nature, and it has an equal right to survival as your now dying son? This question, as I said, may be hypothetical to you as I've presented it, yet this very same situation has been faced by hundreds upon thousands of people all over the world since the dawn of time.I sincerely pray to God that no one would ever have to make that, or a similar choice ever again.
Think about it.

 

[orbital]

I agree that I would save my son immediately from the stray dog. I am interested in alleviating the unnecessary suffering of all life, including human suffering and animal suffering. I think there are often differences between animal suffering and human suffering, however. One problem is scale. Americans kill almost twice as many animals annually for consumption as there are people on the planet (roughly 10 billion animals annually). Almost all are killed well before they even approach the end of their natural life spans. Many are horribly abused. Animals, like children, are essentially helpless. This is why I feel so bad for them... they don't have any chance at all.

One unfortunate reality that sometimes dampens my enthusiasm for helping people is humanity's great capacity for evil, which I don't believe animals are even capable of. Only people have ever systematically eliminated millions of people (genocide). Still, I am hopeful for us, and I plan to aid my fellow man as I am able.

To summarize, my interest in helping animals is due to the scale and severity of the problem and the helplessness of the animals that we subjugate and abuse. Science has proven that animals have emotions and are capable of experiencing pleasure and pain. To me, this is more than sufficient cause to expend my energy.

Has anyone else watched the videos? They are extremely intense, but I think its a very powerful motivator. How can you not feel like shit after seeing something like that?

 

[TomdW]

Sorry Tom, I've just got to disagree with your basic premise that an animal's life is equal to a human's life. As the father of two boys and a guy who has spent a great portion of his life teaching and mentoring kids from all walks of life I actually find equating an animal, any animal, that, left to itself may trample, abandon or even consume its own offspring with an innocent and completely helpless human infant somewhat insulting.

What I was advocating was this: If an individual feels a moral obligation to champion the rights of a helpless, defenseless creature then I truly believe that the much greater obligation is to alleviate the suffering and death of human children and infants first and foremost.

Here's a hypothetical question to consider and perhaps reflect a bit more deeply on the subject as I've presented it: Your son, your three year old son is playing in your yard when he is viciously attacked by a stray dog. You try everything you know to get the dog to release your screaming, bleeding son, when you come to the horrific realization that; if the attack does not end immediately your son will die from his wounds.

Here's my question; at that instant, is your sons life worth killing that dog? Or do you allow that dog to consume your sons flesh because it is the dogs nature, and it has an equal right to survival as your now dying son? This question, as I said, may be hypothetical to you as I've presented it, yet this very same situation has been faced by hundreds upon thousands of people all over the world since the dawn of time.I sincerely pray to God that no one would ever have to make that, or a similar choice ever again.
Think about it.

Although I can see your point, I still strongly disagree with you on some things. Firstly you made a reference to how animals at times consume their young and I agree that humans would never do that. However, how many animals (or other species) have you come across that have dropped nuclear weapons on each other. Or that have had wars, or that habitually drop bombs on their own kind. It seems to me that humans are the only species on this planet that do that. I'd trade eating a few young for wiping out entire cities any day wouldn't you?

On to the point of what I would do if I was confronted with the situation that you described. My instinct, which I would act upon, would be to get the dog off my son by any means necessary and I believe that to be natural. But I think that it is slightly different when it is a family member or friend of yours than if it was not. That said, if I was hypothetically confronted by a situation where I had to choose between either a human or any kind of animal of the same age and level of health in order to save them from certain death then I would save the human no question.

Here is what I said on this matter to begin with 'If you value life then you should value animal life just as highly as human life. I'm sorry I don't believe for one moment that human life is any more important than animal life and if there were videos of slaughter houses like this involving humans then it would be an absolute outrage.'

I think that it is very important to look at animals with the same respect and empathy as we do some other humans. But when it comes down to it we would all rightly choose our own kind over animals. That does not mean that we should not give them the same, or at least a very similar value as we do our own kind. Just imagine the outrage that would be caused if it were humans in those slaughter videos. It would be all over the news and the fact that it is not is a direct example of human arrogance in believing that we are simply more important than other animals. You can see it even in the way that we class ourselves as 'humans' and separate ourselves from the 'animals' when in reality we are animals. We are just psychologically advanced animals.

Notice also that I wrote 'I don't believe for one moment that human life is any more important than animal life' and what I mean is that universally we are not in any way more important than animals. Maybe our young mean more to us and that is fair enough but really if we had such a respect for each other above animals then would we bomb each others children?

One more point. You made up a hypothetical situation about your or my child. I think it is very important for us to value each others children at a very similar value as ones own. Too often we think that OUR children or OUR species is most important and should survive at all costs. But we're not talking about a life or death situation here, we are talking about needless cruelty and killing of millions of animals just because we like steaks and bacon. Bare in mind the fact that we are not IMO designed to even eat these things and you can see how I view the general human way of thinking is barbaric. We are also responsible for this entire planet's Eco system being about to freak out big time and yet some of us still drive around in big V8's and eat fat steaks because they are just so damn self important to think outside their little bubble of reality. 'My family is OK and I'm OK so nothing else matters.'. That is the attitude that, when coupled with some self induced ignorance, leads to slaughter houses like the ones that we are discussing existing.

We desperately need to gain some respect for our planet, each other (outside of those that we know) and other species as well as gaining an understanding of how to live in harmony with our surroundings be it ecologically or empathetically. On the whole, our levels of care and compassion have to rise significantly whether it is for animals or any other creature on this planet.

 

[MAXAMEYES]

Animals are not capable of evil because they have no understanding of the concepts of good or evil. Yet they are quite capable of acts that humans would reasonably consider brutal to say the least. Look at just about any type of carnivore and their behavior. When a male lion takes over a pride he kills and eats all the cubs in that pride, this forces the females into estrus so that he can be the only genetic strain passed on. Same for many species of other felines, canines, bears.
Even chimpanzees have been found to wage war on neighboring troops, gang up, kill and eat the other lead males as well as the young. Sows quite often eat the piglets when subjected to stress, as will most species of rodent.

There was even a fascinating study of ground squirrels, (not normally thought of as blood-thirsty by a long shot), a few years ago where one of the females was tricking other females from their nests with a false distress call. When these nests were then empty of the protective mother, the female giving the false calls would go in and kill, and eat, the young she found.
None of these instances could be defined as evil, that connotes intent and consciousness, but no one would argue their brutality.

I just can't buy the argument that all of humanity is evil and all of nature benign. If such were true, then we would not be engaged in this conversation. You could ask this question of Tim Treadwell (aka Grizzly Man) if the very bears he had protected for 13 years hadn't eaten him and his girlfriend. Man may feel quite patronly and obligated towards animals....but it's by no means reciprocal. In nature you're either predator, prey or compost.

One last thing to ponder; no one grows to adulthood in a vacum. These people torturing those animals grew up somewhere in some type of environment. Do you think that if they had instead been raised to cherish life, all life, they would be capable of such cruelty?
The vast majority of people grow up exposed primarily to other human beings first, (unless raised by wolves, know what I mean), and then expand their world as their consciousness grows. If any given child is raised in an environment of neglect or abuse their potential for continuing that cruel behavior, towards all forms of life, is multiplied immensly.

If people are the cause of a problem, then people need to be the solution to that problem and the behavior necessary to effect change and stop any cruelty needs to be taught and ingrained long before it can ever be practiced. Just because some members of humanity can behave inhumanely doesn't mean that others need suffer for it.

 

[TomdW]

Animals are not capable of evil because they have no understanding of the concepts of good or evil. Yet they are quite capable of acts that humans would reasonably consider brutal to say the least. Look at just about any type of carnivore and their behavior. When a male lion takes over a pride he kills and eats all the cubs in that pride, this forces the females into estrus so that he can be the only genetic strain passed on. Same for many species of other felines, canines, bears.
Even chimpanzees have been found to wage war on neighboring troops, gang up, kill and eat the other lead males as well as the young. Sows quite often eat the piglets when subjected to stress, as will most species of rodent.

There was even a fascinating study of ground squirrels, (not normally thought of as blood-thirsty by a long shot), a few years ago where one of the females was tricking other females from their nests with a false distress call. When these nests were then empty of the protective mother, the female giving the false calls would go in and kill, and eat, the young she found.
None of these instances could be defined as evil, that connotes intent and consciousness, but no one would argue their brutality.

I just can't buy the argument that all of humanity is evil and all of nature benign. If such were true, then we would not be engaged in this conversation. You could ask this question of Tim Treadwell (aka Grizzly Man) if the very bears he had protected for 13 years hadn't eaten him and his girlfriend. Man may feel quite patronly and obligated towards animals....but it's by no means reciprocal. In nature you're either predator, prey or compost.

One last thing to ponder; no one grows to adulthood in a vacum. These people torturing those animals grew up somewhere in some type of environment. Do you think that if they had instead been raised to cherish life, all life, they would be capable of such cruelty?
The vast majority of people grow up exposed primarily to other human beings first, (unless raised by wolves, know what I mean), and then expand their world as their consciousness grows. If any given child is raised in an environment of neglect or abuse their potential for continuing that cruel behavior, towards all forms of life, is multiplied immensly.

If people are the cause of a problem, then people need to be the solution to that problem and the behavior necessary to effect change and stop any cruelty needs to be taught and ingrained long before it can ever be practiced. Just because some members of humanity can behave inhumanely doesn't mean that others need suffer for it.

Now I think we've got somewhere. I agree with many of your points. I recently watched a documentary in which a huge hoard of hornets attacked a beehive to steal their honey. It was a total massacre. They just chomped up the bees really quickly and I think the ratio of bees to hornets was 100 to 1 but in the end the hornets had killed every single bee. Amazing documentary but poor bees.

Anyway just one point. I think that since humans are conscious and are therefore aware of any cruelty that we inflict it makes us worse for still doing. Animals are not aware in the way that we are so I don't think that what animals do to each other and what humans do to each other is comparable. Being conscious beings gives us a responsibility to be compassionate not only to our kind but to all life.

I'm sure that you agree and I'm glad that we could come to an understanding on this.

 

[stillwantmore]

Penis EnlargementTA is too radical of an orginization to ever gain any support from me. Like many radical far left, liberal oranizations they always find the worst case scenarios and latch onto them like a leach on your ass using your emotions as triggers to get your reaction. Animals are here to serve us as we see fit because we're at the top of the food chain. I dont believe in needless suffering of my food ...being unusually cruel to a cow for example or making sure it dies a slow painful death before eating it, but these people (Penis EnlargementTA for example) get very carried away. If you do enough research on organizations such as Penis EnlargementTA you will find that they are often very hypocritical in their agendas.

 

[MAXAMEYES]

Well put Tom, well put. Y'know; I actually enjoyed this, the mental workout keeps my brain from rusting shut. Plus, I like to play the Devil's Advocate once and again. Hopefully it keeps all of our minds somewhat more agile.

 

[TomdW]

Stillwantmore - 'Animals are here to serve us as we see fit because we're at the top of the food chain. I dont believe in needless suffering of my food .'

Animals are not just your food. Don't you think that just maybe since we have a concioussness we should use it and be moral. It takes wisdom to be kind, but you are showing a total lack of kindness. Just because we have the power to treat animals as we do by slaughtering in this way doesn't mean that we should.

The defining trait, as discussed earlier in this thread, of a human being is empathy. So by definition you are being inhumane.

Maxam. I totally agree with you. In depth discussion can be very rewarding mentally. As long as no one lets their pride get hurt. I think at times I was and am playing the Devil's Advocate also in this thread.

 

[TomdW]

Please delete.

 

[orbital]

I think Stillwantmores comment is stupid and heartless.

 

[REDZULU2003]

Those videos are fuckin sick and made me upset and I've been a cop and seen lots of nasty shit.

I love my meat, and will continue to eat it. I do think that these animals deserve and need a dignified death than what they received. A lethal injection to all the sheep one by one in a nice setting withint the location would have been much more humane.

I do not agree with animal cruelty and those who engage in it are fuckin yellow bellys and I have my self THANK GOD had the chance and shall we say JOY of kicking the fuckin shit out of one bloke from the UK who I helped arrest once for beating his dogs, cutting it with a knife, he also cut its eye out and it was later found in the sink upstairs dried into the plug hole .. NO JOKE. He also cut off cats limbs and we helped rescue many three legged cats and the cruelty was just awful and I never slept that night.

I get more upset with cruelty to animals than to humans, dont ask why perhaps its something to do with my Aspergers? I dont give a fuck but I and my partners that day made that guy pay in the back of the van on the way to the station. Pulled over into a quiet field and beat the living shit outta him ... I stamped on his face and pounded his nose against a brick.

The cunt had to be took to hospital and we belted eachother with our fists some to make it seem he had attacked us, got our stories sorted and we were fine.

Lets just say he NEVER did it again, was banned for life from keeping pets and received 8 months in prison.

I know I shouldnt have kicked his head in but it happens when your a cop as you will know from stories on the news but I dont act like those thug pigs and beat anyone, just the lowest of the lowest and if and when I can get away with it ....... why not, you would.

Finally I will agree with the comments about Penis EnlargementTA being extreme but they need to get this nasty shit out into the open so WELL DONE them for this but I will still eat meat...I hear Hel-al meat which is blessed has been killed with more dignity??

 

[MAXAMEYES]

Hey Red, if I remember right you're thinking of Hallal (sp?) which is the Islamic counterpart to the Jewish Kosher dietary restrictions. One aspect of each is that an animal must be slaughtered by slitting its throat with the sharpest, most un-blemished blade possible. There are religious aspects to each also, but I'm not all that familiar.
And SWM; your assertion that man is on the top of the food chain? Sorry, INDUSTRY may be on the food chain, but humans?!? Just walk out into Yellowstone National Park with no food or gun....that chain'll shorten up right quick !

 

[iwant8inches]

lol, hence why our tools set us a part from other animals. Our tools can get us into trouble if we abuse them though obviously. It all depends on how we use our tools of course, but the very fact that we have such sophisticated tools, yet have the capacity to come up with concepts and attribute certain actions/events as good and evil, and understand and recognize what constitutes such concepts makes us all hypocritical to a degree. We all live our lives with some sort of knowledge which makes us not so innocent. We are therefore capable of doing degrees of good and evil and then there is also apathy, which can be just as bad as any inherent evil. More to the top of the food chain point though...If you're going to go to go toe-to-toe with a bear or lion you don't have a chance, but hopefully you understand the difference between going into it with just your fists or with an assault rifle.

 

[penguinsfan]

Here's a hypothetical question to consider and perhaps reflect a bit more deeply on the subject as I've presented it: Your son, your three year old son is playing in your yard when he is viciously attacked by a stray dog. You try everything you know to get the dog to release your screaming, bleeding son, when you come to the horrific realization that; if the attack does not end immediately your son will die from his wounds.

I don't think this gets anywhere by trying to compare animals and humans in some respects. Some animal extremists argue that all animals are innocent, in all instances, but your example makes me disagree. Some animals will attack you in situations where others of the same species would not in the same situation. Timothy Treadwell is an prime example of that. Animals do not have the same intellectual capacities that we do, but some are shy, kind, mean, passive, aggressive, etc. They have a remarkable range of emotions and personalities. So, one could argue that in all species you probably have your "good citizens" and "dickheads" for lack of a better way to state it.

 

[penguinsfan]

The cunt had to be took to hospital and we belted eachother with our fists some to make it seem he had attacked us, got our stories sorted and we were fine.

Lets just say he NEVER did it again, was banned for life from keeping pets and received 8 months in prison.

I like it...the UK's Vic Mackey. lol

At least the guy was a totally deserving asshole from what you describe.

 

[stillwantmore]

MMM, pass the bacon!

 

[REDZULU2003]

Hey Red, if I remember right you're thinking of Hallal (sp?) which is the Islamic counterpart to the Jewish Kosher dietary restrictions. One aspect of each is that an animal must be slaughtered by slitting its throat with the sharpest, most un-blemished blade possible. There are religious aspects to each also, but I'm not all that familiar.
And SWM; your assertion that man is on the top of the food chain? Sorry, INDUSTRY may be on the food chain, but humans?!? Just walk out into Yellowstone National Park with no food or gun....that chain'll shorten up right quick !

Thats right.

Is it true than that Hallal meat is killed better with more dignity or what?

 

[nobody]

Since this month I hit the ten year mark as a strict vegetarian I'll chime in here. No, I don't expect the world at large to follow my lifestyle but damn if the world wouldn't be a better place if that were the scenario. The populace majority is ignorant of the fact that the meat industry is a major contributing factor to environmental decline not to mention health problems to the consumer. Ask any expert and they will inform you that the grain protein used as food for livestock far out ways the protein return that the meat produces. Factor in the amount of water and other natural resources that are unnecessarliy wasted and the problem compounds itself exponentionally. Global scientific studies came to this conclusion around the late forties and fifties. It was discovered that if man continued to be a carnivore he would burn out his own species and the planet itself. This is not my opinion, it is documented fact.

From the whole social standpoint that we treat animals the way we do what can I say? Man has lost touch with his own existence and importance if he fails to value ALL the life that is around him. I've had countless experiences where animals have seriously impacted my life. Call me a fool but they have emotion, they have souls. They kill to survive not just for the kill itself. How the hell does that make US the the more highly evolved species? I would put my life on the line for my dogs just as quickly as for my sons. People gave the hurricane victims a lot of crap for refusing to abandon their pets to facilitate their own safety. My hat's off to those brave souls. Their decencey and compasion I hold in the highest regard. I would have done the exact same thing in their shoes. My father bought a doberman when I was around three. He and I were inseperable. I would open his jaws and stick my head in his mouth like a lion trainer. This scared the hell out of my mom and she would always pull me away which is more than understandable. I was never in any danger. He loved me and I loved him. He would later literally save my life when another dog attacked me.

Something else has always stuck with me and most reading this probably won't believe it. When my godfather was a young man he used to be a hunter. One day he was out hunting rabbits. A few hours into the hunt he saw and shot one. The rabbit screamed. Bleeding to death it crawled over to him and curled at his feet whimpering the whole time. There the rabbit died along with part of my godfather's soul. The event tore him apart and he has never hunted since.

There are those who have made light of this thread and nothing I or anyone else says can change their mentallity. They are the majority not the minority. That does not make them right. This is the cancerous derision that will bring man to his downfall. Lastly much respect to you Red for giving that piece of shit what he deserved. You were right. In this world animals can't stick up for themselves. There is nothing better in this world than when good men do the right thing. Society can call me a pussy,tree hugger, hippie, extreme leftist, whatever. I don't give a fuck. I choose to realize there is more to life than myself.

 

[wreck]

Don't hold Penis EnlargementTA in to high regard

Penis EnlargementTA's Dirty Secret

Hypocrisy is the mother of all credibility problems, and People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (Penis EnlargementTA) has it in spades. While loudly complaining about the "unethical" treatment of animals by restaurant owners, grocers, farmers, scientists, anglers, and countless other Americans, the group has its own dirty little secret.

Penis EnlargementTA kills animals. By the thousands.

From July 1998 through the end of 2004, Penis EnlargementTA killed over 12,400 dogs, cats, and other "companion animals" -- at its Norfolk, Virginia headquarters. That's more than five defenseless animals every day. Not counting the dogs and cats Penis EnlargementTA spayed and neutered, the group put to death over 85 percent of the animals it took in during 2003 alone. And its angel-of-death pattern shows no sign of changing.

Year Received† Adopted Killed Transferred % Killed % Adopted
2005 [ 2,145 ][ 146 ][ 1,946 ] [ 69 ] [ 90.7 ] [ 6.8 ]
2004 [ 2,640 ][ 361 ][ 2,278 ] [ 1 ] [ 86.3 ] [ 13.7 ]
2003 [ 2,224 ][ 312 ][ 1,911 ] [ 1 ] [ 85.9 ] [ 14.0 ]
2002 [ 2,680 ][ 382 ][ 2,298 ] [ 2 ] [ 85.7 ] [ 14.3 ]
2001 [ 2,685 ][ 703 ][ 1,944 ] [ 14 ] [ 72.4 ] [ 26.2 ]
2000 [ 2,684 ][ 624 ][ 2,029 ] [ 28 ] [ 75.6 ] [ 23.2 ]
1999 [ 1,805 ][ 386 ][ 1,328 ] [ 91 ] [ 73.6 ] [ 21.4 ]
*1998 [ 943 ] [ 133 ][ 685 ] [ 125 ] [ 72.6 ] [ 14.1 ]
Total [ 17,806 ][ 3,047 ][ 14,419 ] [ 331 ][ 80.1 ] [ 17.1]

* figures represent the second half of 1998 only
† other than spay/neuter animals
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/downloads/PetaKillsAnimals.pdf


On its 2002 federal income-tax return, Penis EnlargementTA claimed a $9,370 write-off for a giant walk-in freezer, the kind most people use as a meat locker or for ice-cream storage. But animal-rights activists don't eat meat or dairy foods. So far, the group hasn't confirmed the obvious -- that it's using the appliance to store the bodies of its victims.

In 2000, when the Associated Press first noted Penis EnlargementTA's Kervorkian-esque tendencies, Penis EnlargementTA president Ingrid Newkirk complained that actually taking care of animals costs more than killing them. "We could become a no-kill shelter immediately," she admitted.

Penis EnlargementTA kills animals. Because it has other financial priorities.

Penis EnlargementTA raked in nearly $29 million last year in income, much of it raised from pet owners who think their donations actually help animals. Instead, the group spends huge sums on programs equating people who eat chicken with Nazis, scaring young children away from drinking milk, recruiting children into the radical animal-rights lifestyle, and intimidating businessmen and their families in their own neighborhoods. Penis EnlargementTA has also spent tens of thousands of dollars defending arsonists and other violent extremists.

Penis EnlargementTA claims it engages in outrageous media-seeking stunts "for the animals." But which animals? Carping about the value of future two-piece dinners while administering lethal injections to puppies and kittens isn't ethical. It's hypocritical -- with a death toll that Penis EnlargementTA would protest if it weren't their own doing.

Penis EnlargementTA kills animals. And its leaders dare lecture the rest of us

My own rant

Do fruit and vegetables feel pain when you tear its reproductive organs off while the plant is still alive??? By getting your food this way it usually means you will be eating the plant's undeveloped young for you nourisHydromaxent!!
JUST A THOUGHT

female animal - fertilization - womb -- baby --- baby animals
tomato plants - pollination - tomatos - tomato seeds - baby tomato plants

Do you see a difference I can't

 

[REDZULU2003]

Animals that are bread for their meat should getter better treatment in their short lives and not be crammed into cages and shitty houses but be cared for better, sure the meat would probably cost more for us who eat it [like myself] but at least one would know that animal wasnt sitting in shit getting mental torture and just waiting for its death ... animals have feelings.

All animals who are going to end up in the pot should in my view get a proper quick dignified and decent death. I dont know exactly what this would be, but cutting throats isnt that to me. Somekind of lethal injection would be ideal which could relax the animal and than slowly collapse its lungs and stop its heart, it wouldnt suffer and would die in peace. Again prices would probably rise for those who want the meat, wouldnt bother me. Also the fact that the drugs might get into our body would prbably rule this method out.

Maybe getting the animals and shooting them one by one in the head on a private site away from all the others so they cant hear the shots in peaceful surroundings is another method?? they are and must be better methods to kill animals that are meant for human consumption.

I will never stop eating meat, I like it but do sometimes wonder what the poor creature went through before it went onto my plate. If these creatures had a nice life while they were waiting for their death and that death was a dignified and non cruel one than maybe more people wouldnt be so against eating meat.

I know that here in the UK, laws are stricter on animal conditions such as Chickens being crammed in their thousands in warehouses waiting for the knife. Only so many can be housed and they must have so much space to move in now.

Quickly back to my story on when I beat that cruel fucker who hurt his 'pets'. Well the sweetest thing for me was hearing his crys for mercy and help ... the tears and the desperation of fear in his eyes and the joy I got seeing him cover his head from my fists hitting his skull. He knew that day what it was like to be a animal victim, and we made him feel the full force of it and I WOULD DO IT AGAIN if I had to. Although I aint a cop anymore, I would do it to someone as I find it in the same league as child abusers and rapists .... animal cruelty to me is in the same league as they are innocent helpless creatures who cant fuckin speak and tell someone anything.

 

[nobody]

Yeah wreck, I see a difference. Animals aren't fruit. Your comparison is utterly ridiculous. Maybe we shouldn't walk on dirt either...just in case it feels our footsteps. C'mon man, you can't be serious?

 

[penguinsfan]

Something else has always stuck with me and most reading this probably won't believe it. When my godfather was a young man he used to be a hunter. One day he was out hunting rabbits. A few hours into the hunt he saw and shot one. The rabbit screamed. Bleeding to death it crawled over to him and curled at his feet whimpering the whole time. There the rabbit died along with part of my godfather's soul. The event tore him apart and he has never hunted since.

I had a teacher in middle school that told me a similar story about a rabbit and he nevered went hunting again. The only thing I personally hunt is deer.

 

[penguinsfan]

Yeah wreck, I see a difference. Animals aren't fruit. Your comparison is utterly ridiculous. Maybe we shouldn't walk on dirt either...just in case it feels our footsteps. C'mon man, you can't be serious?

Maybe I'm totally mistaken, but I do believe there have been some studies suggesting that plants may experience a sort of stress when their fruit is picked. I guess there are some individuals that will not eat anything but fruit that has already fallen to the ground, but the term escapes me.

 

[nobody]

Maybe I'm totally mistaken, but I do believe there have been some studies suggesting that plants may experience a sort of stress when their fruit is picked. I guess there are some individuals that will not eat anything but fruit that has already fallen to the ground, but the term escapes me.

You are not mistaken. There are also other similiar studies. As I mentioned before though, the comparison of fruit and animal rights is ridiculous. Fruit doesn't care for and raise it's young, maintain life long relationships, or mourn for the loss of family members. Many mammals and birds do. Earlier another member mentioned that some animals at times eat their young. Well sometimes women kill their newborns and children so what's his point of even bringing that up? How many times do you hear newscasts about that as well as men killing their step-children (lion/cub scenario). My point is simply that the animal kingdom and man show amazing parallels with each other. The same arguement cannot be supported about fruit.

 

[MAXAMEYES]

One inescapable fact of life is this: If any one individual anything is going to grow it will mean the incorporation and destruction of some other thing. Animals consume animals, animals consume plants, plants consume chemical elements that have been realeased into the environment by everything ranging from chemical interactions in the atmosphere and soil, to bacterial action, all the way up to human beings producing compost and re-fertilizing the soil. At each stage of change, something gives up its individual identity to become part of something else. You can even see this at the atomic level when two gasses, hydrogen and oxygen combine to become water. Even the air we breathe is loaded with countless numbers of living, breathing, reproducing microbes who die, for the most part-unless they make you sick, when you breathe. Digesting anything, even vegetables, kills millions of your own bacteria in your own intestines. So whether anyone wants to realize it or not each of us is engaged in the taking of billions of one celled lives everyday. It's inescapable, we just don't see it. So what types of lives we take and to what extent only encompasses that which we can see and make visual choices about. Many indigineous populations (my own Native American ancestors included) realized this centuries ago and offered prayers to the creatures who had given up their own lives for for the strength and health of the person consuming them. I think that it's this lack of appreciation and respect for the dead and the sacrifice made for our nourisHydromaxent and our continued lives that has caused humanity to lose quite a bit of its humanity. I truly believe that a greater appreciation of our position in and dependence on this unbreakable cycle would help us to much more greatly realize our responsibilities in that cycle.

 

[TomdW]

One inescapable fact of life is this: If any one individual anything is going to grow it will mean the incorporation and destruction of some other thing. Animals consume animals, animals consume plants, plants consume chemical elements that have been realeased into the environment by everything ranging from chemical interactions in the atmosphere and soil, to bacterial action, all the way up to human beings producing compost and re-fertilizing the soil. At each stage of change, something gives up its individual identity to become part of something else. You can even see this at the atomic level when two gasses, hydrogen and oxygen combine to become water. Even the air we breathe is loaded with countless numbers of living, breathing, reproducing microbes who die, for the most part-unless they make you sick, when you breathe. Digesting anything, even vegetables, kills millions of your own bacteria in your own intestines. So whether anyone wants to realize it or not each of us is engaged in the taking of billions of one celled lives everyday. It's inescapable, we just don't see it. So what types of lives we take and to what extent only encompasses that which we can see and make visual choices about. Many indigineous populations (my own Native American ancestors included) realized this centuries ago and offered prayers to the creatures who had given up their own lives for for the strength and health of the person consuming them. I think that it's this lack of appreciation and respect for the dead and the sacrifice made for our nourisHydromaxent and our continued lives that has caused humanity to lose quite a bit of its humanity. I truly believe that a greater appreciation of our position in and dependence on this unbreakable cycle would help us to much more greatly realize our responsibilities in that cycle.

I agree with you on this. I believe that the lifeforce inside living food that we eat such as vegetables or fruit is absorbed into our bodies and gives us energy. When carnivores such as crocs or lions eat meat they absorb the life in it because they don't cook it or store it for long after the animal was killed. Their digestive systems are equipped to get the nutreints into the animals system before they die and become useless. Also, we cook the meat and burn off any active nutrients not to mention the fact that we don't eat the organs, feathers, bones or skin of the animals that we kill which actually contain most of the goodness that a true carnivore, or omnivore, would get from any dead animal.

The problem with humans eating meat is that our systems are not built like that. As I said before our digestive tracts are much more complex and lend themselves to the slow absorbtion of living nutrients (lifeforce) of fruit and vegetables. I have personally undergone a semi personal study of this in action. I ate only what I would consider living foods such as fruit and vegetables in large quantities and without overcooking it. After a week I felt amazing. I lost a lot of body fat but retained good muscle tone and my energy levels were through the roof.

I also slept like a baby and was a lot happier in general. At that time I was also drinking A LOT of pure water. I'm not doing this now because I simply love eating crap. It's like smoking, it's a bad habit, you know that you'd feel better without it but you still can't help yourself.

I'd recomend anyone to try it out but be warned. The first three or four days you will feel worse since your body is clearing out a lot of microtoxins that are usually stored in your organs and bones but have to come out into your blood to drain out of your system. Hence, whilst the microtoxins are in your blood you feel worse but it passes and when it's over you feel better than you have for a long time. If you are interested then eat loads of salad, fruit and vegetables in a huge variety. Eat more than you usually would and eat more frequently. No matter how much you eat you will still lose weight since fat is just our body's way of getting the acidity that is caused by eating meat, etc away from our main organs. i.e. our body fat is just a dumping ground for the acidic waste that our bodies can't deal with.

 

[wreck]

Yes this is true fruit isn't a animal but it is still alive.It will move toward the sun when repositioned, dies without water or food and reproduces itself.
Where do you draw your line in what is or isn't acceptable to kill. Just because plants don't scream out when you kill them or maybe you just can't here them scream out that makes it OK?

Please understand I'm making light of this subject because I find the argument utterly ridiculous if a rabbit can't be killed because it is alive than why doesn't the same standard go for the poor alive asparagus. If you respect life respect all life


Yes I eat fruit, vegetables and meat I have even kill my share of all three and in noway do I care how anyone else choses to live their lives.
When I do my own killing to feed myself I chose a quick and efficient method. I do so with great respect to life as a hunter/gather.
I chose not have someone else do it for me, can we all claim the same. Is it easier for some to swallow if someone else does the killing is in your name?

WRECK

 

[wreck]

I would have thought someone would have guessed the major difference between plants and animals -- brain and nervous system

 

[nobody]

Yes this is true fruit isn't a animal but it is still alive.It will move toward the sun when repositioned, dies without water or food and reproduces itself.
Where do you draw your line in what is or isn't acceptable to kill. Just because plants don't scream out when you kill them or maybe you just can't here them scream out that makes it OK?

Please understand I'm making light of this subject because I find the argument utterly ridiculous if a rabbit can't be killed because it is alive than why doesn't the same standard go for the poor alive asparagus. If you respect life respect all life


Yes I eat fruit, vegetables and meat I have even kill my share of all three and in noway do I care how anyone else choses to live their lives.
When I do my own killing to feed myself I chose a quick and efficient method. I do so with great respect to life as a hunter/gather.
I chose not have someone else do it for me, can we all claim the same. Is it easier for some to swallow if someone else does the killing is in your name?

WRECK

I respect all life but my point still seems to elude you. You can honestly say that taking the life of a rabbit is the same as eating asparagus? It is extremely difficult if not impossible to have a constructive arguement/discussion if that is your mind set which it seems to be. I care how others live their lives because there is a direct impact on mine. It's like second hand smoke but on a global scale. As I mentioned already the meat industry has an extremely negative impact on the environment. I live on this planet too but I have to pay the price for society's unnecessary indulgence. Aside from the cruelty and straight out torture that these animals are subjected to you have to remember that a high level of meat in your diet over a lifetime will lead to disease down the road. Everbody can shrug this statement off now but when you reach your sixties and your body is bloated with cancers, diabetes, high blood pressure, and all that other good stuff then maybe just maybe you will look at vegetarians and vegans in a whole new light but by then it will be too late.

I don't want someone to come at me with some bs like,"Well my grampa grew up on a farm, had steak every night and lived to be hundred." That was a different time with a different quality in meat. One last thing and I'll shut the fuck up. Many vegetarians and vegans have had to be hospitalized after accidentally ingesting meat. This usually only occurs if the person has not had any meat for quite sometime, like myself for instance at ten years now. The human body will actually treat meat as a foreign body and a poison, sending the body into shock. This doesn't happen to everyone and I don't plan on giving it the old college try anytime soon. The fact that our bodies are programmed like that should tell you something.

 

[MAXAMEYES]

And then there are those pesky Aleuts. Who have lived, and thrived, for centuries above the Arctic Circle living on a diet almost exclusively consisting of meat and fat with very little or no vegetation/carbohydrate intake whatsoever. Yet, again, they had deep, spiritual respect for the prey they consumed and realized that, in Nature, the difference between predator and prey is at times a very fluid distinction.

Here's a fascinating article written over sixty years ago about one explorers experience with the Inuit lifestyle and the dietary experiment stemming from it.

http://www.biblelife.org/stefansson1.htm

Very informative and quite interesting.

 

[orbital]

I think the Inuit example you just gave is a fascinating example. Very interesting stuff!

 

[chance]

I don't want to open up a can of worms but you have to realize that there are abuses in all aspects of the world. But they are the exceptions usually. I grew up on a farm and in the outdoors. Hunting, fishing, and farming. Of all of the killing or slaughtering of animals, fish, birds, cows, hogs, deer, turkeys, chickens, etc. that I have seen, none have been cruel or torcherous. I have even been in local slaughter houses and none treat the animals bad. All are just quick humane kills. What you have seen probably only happens a fraction of a percent of the time. These things can get blown way out of proportion. But I don't believe in the torcher of animals in the killing process. They should be killed quickly. Just the truth.

 

[nobody]

That was an interesting read MAXAMEYES. My mother was an archeologist and traveled in many related circles such as anthropolgy so I was a liitle familiar with this already. The longevity issue seemed to be a corcern among her and her colleages as well. Again it is also worth noting the axe I am grinding in this thread is that it was a different time then, our planet was still pure so to speak. You are also talking about fish vs. redmeat. I strongly feel that fish is entirely more suited to sound health than any type of red meat. The problem with that is man himself. There are too many of us for this sphere. Our oceans grow more polluted with each passing day to the detriment of it's inhabitants. You always hear about the ever rising degree of mercury in many types of fish but there are many other toxins as well. The fish populations around the world are not only declining because of these pollutants. Commericial fishing has severly crippled their ability to reproduce.

Even as a vegetarian I am not immune to these adverse effects. With produce I have pesticides, industrial run off, and acid rain to deal with. I try to buy organic as much as possible but it is very expensive. I just don't feel that my level of exposure is at all comparable to those who eat meat. I am very healthy and quite active.

When people first find out that I am a vegtarian they always get this perplexed look on their face. People have this misconception that if you don't eat meat you will become a weak anemic beanpole. I've really let my exercise regimen slip these past several years but not because I can't physically handle it, I simply let my lifestyle change when I got married three years ago. I'm getting back into the swing of things though. Getting involved in pe is what actually got me inspired. Self improvement is like a cancer, it just spreads.

Lastly I want to make it clear when I say that as a vegetarian I am perfectly capable of the same level of physical activity and prowness of any other athlete. I started running marathons when I was in the Corps. not as a competition just on my own. I've done this when I lived in Phoenix,AZ during the peak of summer. I do lift weights as well but I prefer the old standbys like pull ups, push ups, climbing rope, etc. For those of you with military backgrounds tell me that the the old "O" course is not an awesome tool for hardcore training. I used to love to run for an hour or so and hit that bitch at least 4-5 times back to back. I wish civilian parks had those. Some asshole would probably break his leg and sue the city or some pussy ass shit like that. Oh well, thanks to all those who take the time to read this and even if you don't agree with me I respect the fact you took time and effort to voice your opinions on this thread.

 

[MAXAMEYES]

Thanks guys, one of the points to ponder I was bringing up was the fact that Man, as a species, is probably the most adaptable single species on the planet. Inuit prove you don't really need vegetation, vegetarians prove you don't really need meat. Many vegetarians don't eat meat for moral reasons while, as I pointed out in an earlier thread, most indigenous peoples recognize and give deeply held gratitude for the sacrifice of life involved in eating flesh.
Each has quite a large spiritual component.
( I've always said that if everyone had to slaughter and prepare their own meat, there'd be a whole lot more vegetarians in the world.)

Anybody who has ever spent any amount of time out in "the real world" recognizes that Man is simply another component in and of this world. About the only reason I think that human life is intrinsically more valuable than an animals life is that humans can dedicate themselves to a purpose. Humans can, through altruism, benefit others by sacrificng themselves, with no thought of personal gain or even desire for thanks. Something which runs completely counter to the most basic of survival instincts and is an almost exclusively human activity. Self-sacrifice is not a Darwinian adaptation. It is a conscious decision, a recognition that there exists in the universe something, (or many things), much greater than oneself, and that dedicating ones energy, or life, toward perpetuating that greatness, that purpose, is a worthy goal.

 

[penguinsfan]

You are not mistaken. There are also other similiar studies. As I mentioned before though, the comparison of fruit and animal rights is ridiculous. Fruit doesn't care for and raise it's young, maintain life long relationships, or mourn for the loss of family members. Many mammals and birds do. Earlier another member mentioned that some animals at times eat their young. Well sometimes women kill their newborns and children so what's his point of even bringing that up? How many times do you hear newscasts about that as well as men killing their step-children (lion/cub scenario). My point is simply that the animal kingdom and man show amazing parallels with each other. The same arguement cannot be supported about fruit.

You are right that animals show the complex relationship aspects of raising their young, mourning for lost family members, etc. They certainly have a far more complex and detailed existence than that of plants, but humans take it to a far greater level. Humans show many emotions that are not seen in the animal world, design complex structures and solve great scientific or mathematic challenges, and work towards the preservation of species that are endangered (Do animals show concern for our well-being?). As I stated earlier, I do not like to see cruelty to animals. I do not criticize vegetarians or vegans for their lifestyle and in fact admire the discipline, but it's not going to be for me. The whole point I'm making is that of course it would be insanity to suggest that killing an animal is equal to killing a plant. But there is as much insanity from those that truly suggest that killing an animal and a human are just as equal, IMHO.

 

[nobody]

I'm not sure if I have mentioned this before but I'm a hardcore insomniac most of the time. I went to bed after 2am and woke up to take a whiz at 4:12am and then of course couldn't go back to sleep. I missed the first ten minutes or so but I was watching this documentry on HBO called "Dealing Dogs". It was about these animal rights activists who went undercover for about six months to gain evidence of the living hell that dogs go through in the kennel to animal research racket. I'm a pretty emotionaly reserved guy most the time but it made me cry.

For all of you out there who think animals don't need humane treatment and that all these groups exagerate the circumstances of the horrors we put on our animal bretheren you are so full of shit. It's so easy to stick your head in the sand and just say the problem doesn't exist or refuse to get involved personally. It's no big deal right? Just the way it is right? Spineless fucks. The fuckin' demons that show documented and all the others like them I would gladly snatch the life out of in a heartbeat. I wouldn't lose a night's sleep over it either.

 

[iwant8inches]

Man, I saw that documentary. It made me damn near cry. I saw it I believe late on Sunday night or maybe Monday. I was going to post about this myself, but I forgot what it was called and school got in the way. Man, when the under-cover investigative reporter didn't speak up for that one dog that they shot in the head was when I about lost it. It's making me well up right now man. My dog was sleeping nearby and I probably hugged him twenty times the next day. Love my dog...I almost couldn't watch it all.