US Soldiers Torture Iraqi POW's

Swank said:

Well gentlemen, all that I can say in response is that our president and our congress, as well as all the top military leadership don't see it your way. The people that are actually in positions of authority and power in matters of war don't see torture as justified or necessary, and thank god as far as I'm concerned. Freely advocating cruelty like that just shows what this type of gung-ho mentality does to us as a nation. As somebody else kindly restated, that does not make the enemy fear us, that is preposterous. It makes them hate us more, and in the end will cost more lives as untold numbers of angy, poor, uneducated young arabs see pictures of people that look just like them being tortured by US soldiers who are posing for the camera with mile wide grins and two thumbs up. My own father had a long military career, served in WWII and Korea, then went on to the state department and evetually became a diplomat. As a young man he taught me that the greatest tragedy of war is that it robs us of our respect for human diginity, and that the onyl way to be a true success in such matters is do everything you can to preserve your humanity and reflect this in your conduct.

By advocating torture just because they would have 'done the same to us,' i hardly see how we have a superior mentality to any terrorist. Why are terrorists evil? They don't respect human life and use violence and fear to achieve their goals. Hmmm, now what is torturing another human being, who is held captive and has no way to defend themselves? Once you're off the battle field and you don't have a rifle in your hand, the rules change lads, it's as simple as that. And Stillwantmore, you seem to be a very nice and reasonable person, but the Geneva-blah-blah as you call it, is an achievement of massive importance in the world that dictates much of what we base international law upon. Nobody should pick up a gun before they've thoroughly read history. The torture is an uncalled for show of animal cruelty and ignorance, and does absolutly no good in the world. Stick up for the men that fight bravely for their country on the battlefield, not the ones that idle away their time abusing defenseless human beings for fun.

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I dont care.
I been against my AMERICAN BROTHERS on this READ AND FIND my terrorism thread, it will suit you cos I was against the US doing what it did.
Now I dont care and just support our bros and sis, cos the Iraiq peeps will always be bastards fighting us and burning shit.
Ya not see what they did to those INNOCENT people in Iraw months ago?? they came to build there and help the Iraqi people, but they attacked them and BURNT them, finally they HUNG THEM in the street and it was on TV here, I seen it.
We just givin them a SMALL taste back, I mean were just humiliating them.
Iraq will always moan its head off about summut, MHO is FUCK THEM OFF and bring our boys and girls back, let them rot cos I dont give a fuck anymore what happenes to the ugly camels.
What has changed my mind from al the months of being against the war is, the people of Iraq still moan and say its no better and attack us, so fuck them.
There ungrateful bastards, we got rid of saddam and saved a potential bio attack of somekind oneday.
These scenes happen in war, torture ... its life man, if ya cant stand it DONT WATCH.
I myself dont care, I hate those evil Iraqi bastards who keep killin our men than want to live here in the UK, if I arrest any other here as they are here as immagrants, am gunna send my size 12 straight in there teeth.

Zurik said:

Now what exactly did Iraq have anything to do with terrorism? I really want to hear this one...

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ROF it was INFESTED with terrorists did ya not know lol where ya been mate, they started blowing themselves up thinkin heaven was cummin lol sili wankers, saddam had old links to Bin Liner in those hills he hides.
PS I find the images of the Iraqi POW's very funny lol great I say, the US soldiers DESERVE A PAY RISE ASAP, I bet bush deep down is fuckin luving it.

I think if you were actually ON the battlefield you'd feel a bit differently. The person you just captured was shooting at you and your buddies, trying to kill you. He may have succeeded in blowing a few of your pals to bits. I don't think you're going to treat him with very much respect. I mean, what are they supposed to do? Give them three course meals and make sure they're clean and healthy and presentable? Give me a break.

POWs are tortured. You can't change that. It isn't wrong or right, it's just something that happens.

EXACLTY Cyclops, when the Iraqis tortured the Brits and yanks during 1990/91 no one cared cos of who we are, now its the US and UK having some fun, I mean thats what it is .... no ones been shot, just doing to them what they deserve - humiliation, we get called for it, yet if it was on the other foot I beg to differ.
We will never beat terrorism, but we can fight it.

Men, women, children...I wouldnt care. Living where they live....the majority of them are bread and raised to hate westerners. If theyre holding a gun, theyre a target.

"saddam had old links to Bin Liner in those hills he hides." "it was INFESTED with terrorists did ya not know "

No i did not, and as far as i'm aware neither did anyone...Are you by any chance working for MI6 and CIA or just believing Bush's crap about the "Axis of Evil","The Crusade against Terrorism" and the infamous and unexistant "Weapons of Mass Destruction"?

Your from Latvia, a former USSR country ... theres always gunna be tensions and shit like this, I belive WHAT I WANT MATE.
FACT IS, Iraq is .. *ahem* was home to terrorists until us Brits and yanks killed um off.
I say Brits and yanks, but thats ignorant of me ... there were Polish,Aussies,Spanish and Bulgarian, Canadian and a few others.
Why are you soooooooo against the Torture of Iraqi POWs???? cos ya dont like the USA and UK thats probably why.

"they came to build there and help the Iraqi people" I do believe you are talking about the oil workers. The only one who is killed or being taken hostage are Americans, Brits and other colonizers. Russians and all the citizens of countries who did not occupy the country are immidietly released.

Yep cos the Germans, French and Russians were upto no good with the old Iraq, sellin them alsorts of shit and they were too yellow to fight in this war so The hairy chimps of Iraq release yaz.
Anyways me gettin tired and bored, get doung some pe mate.

Zurik said:

"they came to build there and help the Iraqi people" I do believe you are talking about the oil workers. The only one who is killed or being taken hostage are Americans, Brits and other colonizers. Russians and all the citizens of countries who did not occupy the country are immidietly released.

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plus, do you think what they did was right.
Burning innocent people like that, I mean if that was a Iraq POW ya would be in tears, but as its US/UK etc ya say we occupy lol nah we dont occupy mate, we keep peace ... look at CYPRUS how calm that is since the UN went in all them years ago, my family come from there.

I'm Russian(living in Latvia), but contrary to the popular belief i do not hate U.S or the U.K. You can believe what you want to believe, but don't call your beliefs facts. Iraq was a dictatorship,which conviniently enough was not only in the middle east(uhhhhh terrorism) but also had oil. Russia never had troops in Iraq and Spain if i'm not mistaken already removed theirs. My point is if the U.S did'nt lead such an aggressive politic towards other countries, there wouldn't be a terrorist problem today.

"Keep Peace"? You were also supposed to keep peace in Serbia and Afghanistan. What can i see you're doing a great job, haha.

"sellin them alsorts of shit "
Final comment for the day- And i wonder who gives the Israeli army all their weapons...

I agree with one thing, in some respects to the trouble now

if the U.S did'nt lead such an aggressive politic towards other countries, there wouldn't be a terrorist problem today

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mate I know the UK and US is FAR from perfect, I wont stick up for us there.
Our ways of the world is bad.
I am talking about the thread topic, I dont care about them Iraq POW getting messed with, plain and simple.
But I do agree, the US and UK bring alot of this terror stuff on themselves.

1. Iraq did not substantially support terrorism, that was never our justification for going over there. It has virtually no association with bin laden, and our own government intelligence has addmitted as much. Going into Iraq was not a strike in the war on terrorism. I might add that Afghanistan, neglected in the wake of Iraq, has returned to warlord rule and recent CIA reports indidcate an increase in terrorist activity in the region.

2. Nobody can tell me or reasonably estimate how I would feel or behave in a combat situation, I CAN tell you that many US troops, military personal, and veterans of foreign wars have already spoken out against the torture and subsequent photographs.

3. This attitude of "oh, torture always happens, deal with it" shows a very limited view of the world, not a realistic one. Should we say things like genocide and bigotry are just fine because they've been around for a long time and are hard to be rid of? Should we be genocidal and attack innocents, just because our enemies do? Is this how the leader and protector of the free world behaves? Again, none of our nation's leaders agree with this, which is why they are in fact leaders. This argument that it's going to happen, regardless, and it's only fair, they would do it to us, is playground level reasoning on a very complicated and trenchant issue, and it demonstrates no respect for the sanctity of life and human rights.

4. Red - you described in a thread how traumatic it was, and how damaging to your life, when you were attacked by a group of drunken youths. Have you no empathy for men made to endure the same thing? True, they were combatants, and you did nothing to provoke your attack, but once captured they were tortured when they had no way to defend or protect themselves, and it was more than just humiliation. They were beaten and threatened, needlessly, for entertainment. Cyclops, may be you can imagine yourself enjoying such sport, but do not assume the same about me.

5. Once again, how arrogant must you be to dismiss these people's lives just because they stand against you. None of you debating this with me would be one bit different if you hadn't been born where you live, and that's a fact. So our lives are worth more? We had the good fortune to be born in liberal open societies with good education and democratic rule, so fuck everybody else that does not have the same advantage? Seeing how easily some of you capitulate to propaganda, I have no doubt that had you been born a poor Iraqi you'd be cruising around with a rusty issue rifle in your palms taking potshots at our soldiers. I'll bet you wouldn't appreciate being attacked by dogs while soldiers stand around laughing and taking pictures. Countries like the UK and the US are the greatest places to live because they are built on a fundamental respect for human life and liberty, those principles inspired the will to freedom that you now enjoy. When you see people hung from a bridge, see it as a tragedy of life, not a strike against your country. This nationalistic, mindlessly patriotic dismissal of the complications of war is what leads to facism, and ultiamately more war and tragedy. Your inability to even consider any of the points I raise indicates that some of you more or less enjoy the celebration of torture, and I'll leave you to that. I am often quick to assume, like my friend Cyclops, that people are similar to me, and so often I assume that they would not take pleasure in the suffering of others. Funny that I still do this.

Swank said:

1. Iraq did not substantially support terrorism, that was never our justification for going over there. It has virtually no association with bin laden, and our own government intelligence has addmitted as much. Going into Iraq was not a strike in the war on terrorism. I might add that Afghanistan, neglected in the wake of Iraq, has returned to warlord rule and recent CIA reports indidcate an increase in terrorist activity in the region.

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Who cares if they supported terrorism or not? The way Saddam was ruling his country was WRONG, no matter which way you slice it. I have a friend from Iraq that was able to get out several years ago and move to America. His father was a professional boxer in Iraq. One time he lost a big match against someone from another country. Saddam himself ordered my friend's dad to be tortured. They chained him up, and beat him within an inch of his life. After that, they tied him to the back of a truck and drug him down a gravel road. Then after they had done all this, and his flesh was literally in shreds, they threw him in a huge vat of raw sewage. All for losing a boxing match against a foreigner. If Saddam would order that, how do you think he ran the rest of his government? I don't think anyone can say that we shouldn't have gone to war with Iraq. And don't give me "they do things differently over there, that's just their way of it." I don't care how you look at it, it is wrong.

I am often quick to assume, like my friend Cyclops, that people are similar to me, and so often I assume that they would not take pleasure in the suffering of others.

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I don't really see where you're coming from. Do you really think you would have mercy on them in battle? I don't mean that you would take pleasure in any of it, but I don't think you would exactly respect them at that point.

Cyclops, may be you can imagine yourself enjoying such sport, but do not assume the same about me.

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Oh my God. I can't believe you actually think that I would enjoy torturing anybody. You have no clue how much you just insulted me. I never said anything about enjoying anything! I said you wouldn't have any respect for them. Oh my God.

I'm done with this thread.

Cyclops - It was incorrect of me to suggest you would enjoy it, that was a barbed comment. However, you do seem to be finding ways to condone and rationalize torture, which, enjoyed or not, I regard without about the same level of contempt. I am not religious person, but I udnerstand that Christians follow the model of Jesus. Would he have simply condoned the actions as unavoidable and advocated them as a fact of war, or would he have deplored them?

Also, you seem to suggest I am arguing against us invading, which we really aren't discussing. I had mixed feelings about the invasion, and in retrospect consider it to be a mistake. Also, remember the dozens of far more brutal dictatorships the US has financially supported and politically bolstered, including Iraq when Sadam was in his heyday of bloodlust. Don't buy into this "we're better off without him, this our job to get rid of people like that" argument without carefully considering history and the politics surrounding teh current war. Have a look at Cambodia, Chile, and so many more. In terms of war, invasion, and mass death, the 'right thing to do' is hardly ever black and white. And once again I might add, that torturing Iraqis levels us with old Sadam quite evenly, and rather explains why they're so violently opposed to our presence right now. A congressional probe is under way to investigate the full extent of abuses, and they are being called abuses.

So far as me having mercy in battle, I would do my duty as a soldier and defend myself and my country, and execute my orders. Would I sick dogs on blindfolded prisoners and pose for pictures? Never. Sympathy for the enemy and respect for human lives is different friend, war is no excuse to toss morality out the window. The situation when you and another are pitted on the battlefield attempting to protect yourselves, and that of golding a prisoner who is at your mercy are different. Anybody that cannot see the distinction boggles me.

Swank said:

Cyclops - It was incorrect of me to suggest you would enjoy it, that was a barbed comment. However, you do seem to be finding ways to condone and rationalize torture, which, enjoyed or not, I regard without about the same level of contempt. I am not religious person, but I udnerstand that Christians follow the model of Jesus. Would he have simply condoned the actions as unavoidable and advocated them as a fact of war, or would he have deplored them?

Also, you seem to suggest I am arguing against us invading, which we really aren't discussing. I had mixed feelings about the invasion, and in retrospect consider it to be a mistake. Also, remember the dozens of far more brutal dictatorships the US has financially supported and politically bolstered, including Iraq when Sadam was in his heyday of bloodlust. Don't buy into this "we're better off without him, this our job to get rid of people like that" argument without carefully considering history and the politics surrounding teh current war. Have a look at Cambodia, Chile, and so many more. In terms of war, invasion, and mass death, the 'right thing to do' is hardly ever black and white. And once again I might add, that torturing Iraqis levels us with old Sadam quite evenly, and rather explains why they're so violently opposed to our presence right now. A congressional probe is under way to investigate the full extent of abuses, and they are being called abuses.

So far as me having mercy in battle, I would do my duty as a soldier and defend myself and my country, and execute my orders. Would I sick dogs on blindfolded prisoners and pose for pictures? Never. Sympathy for the enemy and respect for human lives is different friend, war is no excuse to toss morality out the window. The situation when you and another are pitted on the battlefield attempting to protect yourselves, and that of golding a prisoner who is at your mercy are different. Anybody that cannot see the distinction boggles me.

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To answer your Jesus question...in the Bible, God sent nations to war. One time he told them to kill every last person, including women and children (who we would say were innocent), and all the livestock. They spared some. God was extremely angry, and if I remember correctly, struck the man in charge down. Dead. So if God would order them to kill all the women and children, do you think he would be ok with torture? Probably.

The comment about whether we should have invaded or not was in reply to someone else's post. Sorry I didn't make that clear.