My thoughts to all of you out of LOVE

Forgot to make this point but regarding prayers to saints, all intercessory prayer, even through the saints, is directed to man's relationship with God.

I think what the point is that for some people the Bible works, for some people religion works, and what wasn't discussed very much is for some people not believing works. No one can argue the Bible is a very old book. The way I see it all the stories are so prehistoric that today to relate a story with now and compare it to a story when people road donkey thousands of miles to get around I have to say times have drastically changed entirely. Back then people were different, laws were different, wars were different. Now we have a nuclear bomb and we can decimate an entire country with the push of a button. I believe the Bible has a good moral value with it, and the story of Jesus is a beautiful story that brings tears to my eyes even though I do not practice his methods of living. I agree with MAXAMEYES, the Bible has too many misinterpretations to be taken so literally in the year 2000. As well too many Christians today go to church, put on a holy attitude, and go home to beat there kids. I know that how my childhood church experience was (I wasn't physically beaten; verbally unquestionably). Overall a religion has too much corruption for me to ever think about basing my existence on. I enjoy being around spiritual people who have a better sense of love, relationships, and forgiveness, but from personal experience it is these same people who you put so much trust into only to let you down because after all no matter who you are we are all human.

I gotta say honestly I have a personal relationship with God. It is not He or She. It is not a spiritual being upon a cloud looking down casting good or bad on events seen. Too me God is like an energetic motion. I have never been able to write out an explanation. Simply I have my own views for my reasons and you have yours (speaking to anyone) and I would like mine respected back. I see God as something that you feel. I am typing on a keyboard and this keyboard is God, the chair I'm sitting on is God, the air I'm breathing. I don't believe if you are good or bad you are punished, I believe if you make bad choices you will receive bad consequences and vice-versa for good. You see the way I feel about God is that it is another realm of existence so no way is it possible for you and I to be able to connect on the same understanding. We have a personal relationship each one of ours is different. If you are to teach me that something I disagree with is what God says I don't have to follow you. When I have a problem is when a religion tries forcing that belief on someone. I have an even bigger problem when a church is full of people trying to force a belief on people when they themselves do not follow that belief- very common in religions. I'll also add Christianity is technically not considered a religion.

MAXAMEYES is also right about nothing else in the Bible has much relevance besides the fact that Jesus repeats and is very clear that if you believe in Him and accept Him into your heart you are thus forgiven and allowed into Heaven. The 2nd step being to tell other people this as your new life as a Christian, after which studying the Bible is what you would be your new life. It is so basic an easy to understand it is the foundation of Christianity and is the reason it is separated from a title of religion because in religion you are saved by "acts". Well whether the story of Jesus is real, and whether if I follow the rest of the beliefs of what other people would have me practice so I can "go to Heaven" I prefer to look at my life as on a scale. So much fucked up shit has happen to me, and I am very lucky to have been raised in an environment where people are brought up with intelligence, I feel I have enough understanding of life by now I am 26 going on 27 I don't need Joe SHydromaxo from Kokomo standing at a pedistool telling me to repent or I'm going to Hell because for all I know that guy is a big fat hypocrite. And I'm sick of listening to people who get into a place of power and judging me when honestly nothing I'm doing is evil, bad, or wrong. I am healthy, I am forgiving, I am full of love and passion and I don't need to concern my mind with did I pray enough today? Did I allow myself to spread the word of God today? It touching my pee pee bad? Is not forgiving my fucked up neighbor for being a loud piece of shit going to be what sends me to Hell???

You know for some people it works and that why I believe its here. Because not everybody has been through the fucked up shit I have, and not everyone was lucky enough to go to a good highschool and a couple colleges to have a good head on their shoulders. I know better than to murder people, or steal, or lie, because I knw the consequences- I'm don't want to go to prison, I don't want to lose the ones I love, and etc, so I'm not going to do irrational shit to make let that happen therefore viola I'm going to Heaven My favorite is DLD who says "I got news for you, everyone gets to go to Heaven" I told my mom this and she rolled her eyes. To me it makes sense. At the foundation of all religions God wants one thing for all people and that is true happiness. When you have Jesus you are supposed to be happy. Do you know how miserable people in religion, including Christianity, are? Some of the most lame-hopeless scHydromaxucks you will ever come into contact with....that is the opposite of what Jesus promises by asking Him into your heart. If ya ask me something huge is missing. To me it is just a-whole-llota mumbo-jumbo passed down from parent's generation-to-generation-to-generation and so forth. Again I'm going to say it MAXAMEYES is right about never being able to stop learning. When you truly admit you know nothing is when you truly can being to know something. Why is religion not school, I think for Asian's it is. I believe there is another world of spirituality and indeed there is a God, but I don't believe for the most part you are ANYBODY is better than I am to teach me about it. If God wants me to know something, trust me, God lets me know, I am always willing to hear it. If I sit on my ass and not care I wont see what God has in-store for me thus my consequence is a pretty boring existence. I believe God uses human beings to interact with each other and it works through us. That is the energetic force. Some people are used more. Some maybe Satanic and I think if it works for them then more power to them.

The Bible says God knew all things from the beginning to the end. So in the beginning when the world was created God knew man would sin, so God knew the world would be cursed, and knew the Devil would retaliate, and it knew all about what life was going to be like for you and I to try and discover what it is exactly that is God, just like it knows how it is all going to end. So tell me how is ANY of it bad? If God created ALL of it and God Is Good- then Its ALL Good........and the rest is, well, history.

BANANAxBOY;416292 said:

There is nothing incorrect or incomplete about this as far as i'm concerned but maybe you could help me understand otherwise?

BxB

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BB, that is really a strange statement-are you serious???
Here's just a few for you:

Bats are NOT birds.
Life is NOT static, it evolves-it is impossible that all things were created as we now see them-and will forever remain that way, not evolving.
The planet is NOT 6,000 years old.
Stars CANNNOT fall to the earth (but meteors can-those boys were just confused).
Plants CANNOT be here before the Sun.
People CANNOT live to 600 or 900 years old!! lol
Your god did NOT write the bible, neither did men of a god, Constantine and Politicians and Rabbis did.

The list is endless-but either you have a sense of reason or you don't-delusion is a powerful enemy of the mind. But I'd avoid making sili statements like "there's nothing you can prove wrong with the bible". Don't get me started on the moral wrongs of it-I was nice and just stuck to some of the obvious claims that are false and that list alone is quite long.

BANANAxBOY;415740 said:

There will be a lot of resistance to you reading what i'm about to quote and that is because the devil does not want you to read this, he is VERY manipulative. Try and clear your mind and read this short message.


"The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination - activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). The one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever." Got Questions Ministries

I copied this because i feel it words my opinions very well. God nowhere says that we should COMMUNICATE WITH THE DEAD!! I am telling you this because i love you all!! I care for you. Praying to the DEAD will only provide you with FALSE securities. The SPIRITS OF THE DEAD will glady do the LITTLE things that they can to hold you captive.

Please read the HOLY BIBLE, the Word of the LORD, He speaks the Truth through it.

I expect to be bashed for my words of love to YOU.

BxB

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Love and arrogance seem married in xianity to me.... You may have good intentions-but the xian concept of "love" is pretty twisted and self absorbed if you ask me, and I would say it's more self serving than compassionate whenever I see it. Sounds like you are addressing catholics to me... Which is strange, I haven't heard a lot of catholic stuff on this forum so you must have a beef with catholics and perhaps be a bit of a "fundamentalist"? That's what it sounds like BB.

Also-there is nothing wrong with a statement of faith such as "well, I BELIEVE it is true, I have faith in it." Nobody can argue with that, that is yours, you have a monopoly on it and you'll always win any argument about what you BELIEVE in my opinion. However-you CANNOT use reason to defend the bible without adhering to rules of reason.

Here is an example of this: You cannot use the document's claim as proof that the document is true.

Allow me to demonstrate: The bible is false. God has told me so. By your logic-I just proved the bible is false with "reason". Did I? No, what is in that book proves nothing except what the people of the day thought, or wanted others to think-that is ALL it proves, nothing more. There is no proof of anything coming from the bible other than a peek into history and how ignorant man was in its day. There are THOUSANDS of documents like the bible-they all claim to be the word of a god or gods also. So if you wish to use your argument-you've only disproven the bible as your argument proves all the other gods by the same statement ("it is the word of god") and those other books will contradict and many of them PREDATE YOUR GOD.

There is nothing valuable in the bible that cannot be found somewhere else. There is nothing special about Jesus that some other guy didn't do first according to some other book. As a result-you cannot use the bible to prove anything. You have to use real reason or you sound nothing short of sili. Reason tells us that most of the bible is false and as I said-a book written by politicians.

You DO realize the bible was compiled, edited, and created in the 4th Century (over 300 years after Jesus died) by politicians. There is no question of that, it is a historical fact. If you are not aware of this, start researching the bible outside of fundy web sites. Start with the "Council of Nicea". That one is interesting as it indicates that christians didn't decide how many gods they had until again, 300 years after Jesus died. Do you know how they decided it? There is no mention of godly presence or interference at that council-no, they debated it and argued it and decided-and as a result the bible was edited to indicate one god in 3 persons. There is however indications of the fact that your god was originally part of a pantheon of gods, this group of gods (very similar to other religions of the day, like the Greek system) was called the "elohim". This is still mentioned in some bibles. Another indication is that there are TWO creation stories in Genesis-and they don't line up, they are different. They are different because they are NOT the same story-there are 2 creations: One by the elohim, and one by Jehovah or "Yahweh" as he was called in that day-Yahweh/Jehovah has his own little "science experiment" going on in the garden of eden.

The fundy explanation for "the other people" of Nod (remember-that's where Cain goes and finds a wife after he is banished from the garden)-you cannot answer the question of the "other people" from your view of the bible as there IS no explanation as your view is simply inaccurate. However, if you know the history of xianity and the bible-you know about the 2 creations which explains "the other people" outside the garden... I could go on and on, but even the bible proves my claims like "2 creations" and "group of gods" (and Yahweh was just the chief god, of THUNDER, as the chief god commonly is in many cultures for thunder is the seemingly most powerful force in nature to the ignorant eye).

I'd research real history on your religion before staking your life on it. Good intentions are much more powerful when they are based on truth.


Lastly-back to your sili argument of "the bible says it's the word of god, therefore it's true". Don't think it's sili? Then play a game with me:

Now allow me one claim: That I found in a cave, a drawing of a circle, and inside the circle there is a drawing of a man, and the word truth. This is no different nor less substantial than your TRUE claim: that you have a bible.
Now with your christian arguments, I can prove that the circle is the most powerful force in the world (or universe if you wish to claim that even though it didn't mention it, contradicts it, that "the bible claims god creates the universe") and that it created all things and that it will destroy all things, and that it is the one truth of all things. Try me.

Lets keep this RESPenis EnlargementCTFUL and not insultful. The guy has his core beliefs and so do you, lets respect it and move on. Keep this civilised and not a I know best thread.

REDZULU2003;424344 said:

Lets keep this RESPenis EnlargementCTFUL and not insultful. The guy has his core beliefs and so do you, lets respect it and move on. Keep this civilised and not a I know best thread.

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I don't see how it was disrespectful. The only thing close was calling him out on the "sili" argument that a document can be used to prove itself. Also, maybe in your culture it is bad manners to debate religion or cite historical reasons why it has problems. In my culture-this is quite common, you settle issues of religion with fierce debate. It's true that in christianity, debate is NOT respected and historically they'd just murder anyone that didn't go along... but that's not my fault. If you are going to base your life on something, you should be willing to critically think about it and discuss it in a very serious way. I find it much more insulting when someone uses bogus logic to tell me or someone else that they know the truth and I or they should follow and agree. And when they DO THAT, they've asked to sit down and discuss it in a serious way.

I respect the man's faith-I said that, I simply think the arguments are very poor and have demonstrated why. That's fair, he brought it up-he asked for such responses. If you're going to open the door on religion, you cannot complain when the tax man comes into the house. So I gotta go ahead and disagree with you here ZULU.

Your very emotional about it is all and its nothing personal but remember that for some here religion is there life and no one else can judge them for it, its a choice of ones choosing. This thread is good but as usual with religious threads emotions run high and can erupt. I'm just gently reminding you of the fact.

REDZULU2003;424351 said:

Your very emotional about it is all and its nothing personal but remember that for some here religion is there life and no one else can judge them for it, its a choice of ones choosing. This thread is good but as usual with religious threads emotions run high and can erupt. I'm just gently reminding you of the fact.

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Point taken-but allow me to reiterate one: Religious fanatics are like flashers.. they run around flashing their junk at strangers. So I do think they open themselves up to whatever responses they get. I'm also passionate about my faith-but mine doesn't depend on others believing or agreeing-that's why you don't see me pimping it! If they didn't try to shove it down the throats of others-they wouldn't get responses like mine. I'd also point out that BB's post is actually quite offensive to both catholics and mormons -about how the bible says not to talk to the dead, not to pray to mary and so forth. So while in a much more "slippery" fashion-BB also essentially opened by attacking at least 2 other religions. So if I have attacked HIS religion, A/ he asked for it and B/ turn about is fair play...

I understand. My points were earlier in the thread when the thread creator pulled me up about praying to saints as not allowed which to me is offensive but its his choice and view, I have to respect it but on the same token he needs to respect other folks views and differences.

Alex DeLarge;417263 said:

If I am not mistaken you said y

One more thing, I am a guy that is very interested in spirituality ,quantum mechanics,meditation,mysticism and personal growth in general,in any way shape or form. My journey has led me to meditation as a practical and individual way to truth and happiness and I would recommend it to everyone Little by little as you live in the present moment more and more you will start to realize the people sleepwalking past you in every part of your life, self proclaimed "saved" or religiously-enlightened-touched-by-Jesus people along with priests are the most interesting to observe :blush:

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I totally understand and respect your points (I am a total convert of Meditation and would suggest the entire planet did this).

However, it dawned on me that perhaps praying, is a form of meditation.

I meditate twice a day, morning and evening (30 minutes each time) and would be interested in your take on what I'm claiming here.

I like what Edgar Cayce reported,

"When you pray you talk to God, when you meditate God talks to you."

MAXAMEYES;424463 said:

I like what Edgar Cayce reported,

"When you pray you talk to God, when you meditate God talks to you."

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Maxameyes,

I love that - thanks for sharing !

I did a long meditation session this afternoon because I didn't meditate in the morning. I find that if I don't meditate, my day does NOT go as smoothly (that's for sure).

There's really no point of even having this discussion you can't really convert no one u gotta realize we are in the end times there's so many false religions goin on and people are stubborn and they are gonna believe what they wanna believe in until they see when jesus come back. Then its gonna b so funny how many people gonna switch sides then... but all religions kinda follow the same format. Creator savior and evil character. There is good in all religions that we all can take from but the devil has infiltrated all of them to even christianity which I believe in. Max I unserstand wher u come from when u say that the bible is incomplete. Yes it is the king james version is and also we gotta realize that the english language is limited and based off of different languages. So with the king james version we are not getting the full meaning of the book. We have to actually read the hebrew and greek original texts. Also in the kjv there are books missing that are in the apgraphy. But in the end we are gonna find out what's real and wats not. But in the times were livin in its startin to look liike christianity is giving an accurate prediction of everythings that's goin on in these in times... God says you will know the truth and my voice when you hear it. If u hear somethin and somethin on the inside starts botherin u that means that god is tuggin at your spirit so pay close attention. He will b back soon this world can't run lik this forever and the devils time is running short. I'm not telling u what ta believe I'm jst saying b ready

REDZULU2003;424358 said:

I understand. My points were earlier in the thread when the thread creator pulled me up about praying to saints as not allowed which to me is offensive but its his choice and view, I have to respect it but on the same token he needs to respect other folks views and differences.

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Praying to any other person besides God is a sin... even jesus said not to pray to anyone not even him but only the father... but again not tellin u wat to do jst wat I kno

According to some branches of religion yes but in reality its not a sin. Praying to the Virgin Mary is NOT a sin. Praying to the saints and archangels isn't a sin to me either but again some branches of Christianity and other religions see this as a sin. I respect that but for me Jesus and God do not condemn anyone for that. The saints are actually working through jesus and god for the person who is praying to them which is forgotten about such as St Jude the saint of lost causes who will pray to the high lord on your behalf.

I know this new age stuff is very caught up inside the universal laws and the energy around us I know all that but it helps to have a 'go between' and that is said with no disrespect. The lord Jesus Christ is such a mediator for humankind, a link to god (Universal powers) all this we perceive as religion and new age theology is really ONE tied in. My core beliefs though obviously are Christianity Church Of England but I'm not a die-hard who takes every word for word but more modernised for today's world, albeit aware of the evils around me while also incorporating my own beliefs into my meditations and prayers to Jesus and God.

That sums it up really ... Religion can be as personal or as impersonal as you make it.

Shooting for 7";424436 said:

I totally understand and respect your points (I am a total convert of Meditation and would suggest the entire planet did this).

However, it dawned on me that perhaps praying, is a form of meditation.

I meditate twice a day, morning and evening (30 minutes each time) and would be interested in your take on what I'm claiming here.

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Meditation usually has to do with the self, not a higher power outside the self. However, there is prayer with meditation in some cases-but it's not like western prayer. I would describe western prayer as begging on some guy. "please make her suck my dick" and so forth. Prayer of an internal nature is more like affirmation. But it is more like you are focusing your energy on achieving a goal and trying to awaken the wisdom within yourself to achieve it. I've been meditating a long time and it's hard to describe, for example "Buddhist Prayer" to a Westerner who knows little of "Internal Faiths" or "Atheist Faiths" is hard to understand. Theism is a focus on something outside yourself, even when you claim it's part of you-as you also have to admit you cannot control your god, whomever he/she/it may be. Meditation focuses on the power of the self, of the mind specifically. So it's "internal vs. external" and really not the same thing at all.

Hope that helps a little Shooter.

And yet, Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."
Hmmmm.....

MrFreak;424489 said:

Praying to any other person besides God is a sin... even jesus said not to pray to anyone not even him but only the father... but again not tellin u wat to do jst wat I kno

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.

REDZULU2003;424496 said:

According to some branches of religion yes but in reality its not a sin. Praying to the Virgin Mary is NOT a sin. Praying to the saints and archangels isn't a sin to me either but again some branches of Christianity and other religions see this as a sin. I respect that but for me Jesus and God do not condemn anyone for that. The saints are actually working through jesus and god for the person who is praying to them whih is forgotten about such as St Jude the saint of lost causes who will pray to the high lord on your behalf.

I know this new age stuff is very caught up inside the universal laws and the energy around us I know all that but it helps to have a 'go between' and that is said with no disrespect. The lord Jesus Christ is such a mediator for humankind, a link to god (Universal powers) all this we perceive as religion and new age theology is really ONE tied in. My core beliefs though obviously are Christianity Church Of England but I'm not a die-hard who takes every word for word but more modernised for today's world, albeit aware of the evils around me while also incorporating my own beliefs into my meditations and prayers to Jesus and God.

That sums it up really ... Religion can be as personal or as impersonal as you make it.

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God said himself he is a jealous god how do think he feels about u praying to other people besides him....

And max he when he said that he doesn't meant they are the same he means they are one in spirit there is a power structure in the trinity father=God son=jesus and the holy spirit.... but at the end of the day this is my beliefe and its going to differ from everyone who doesn't believe the same. That's why religious arguments never get anywher and I tend to stay from them

I know what your saying but prayers via Saints are going to god anyhow through them. Its meant to be more powerful sometimes going through a saint to reach god than directly to god and certain names of god cannot ever be said unless in dire straits. To me its not a sin to pray to a saint such as the Virgin Mary who is the mother and certainly not a sin asking for the intercession from Saint Michael which all Catholics prayed to at church on mass for his protection, which has now been ommited from the mass for whatever reasons.

I respect your views though and dont think I'm right on everything. We are all decent humans and try our best to help the fellow man which is the MAIN THING I think, no matter what religion you are. We can all come here on these forums in this section no matter what religion or creed incl Satanists because we are tolerant and will listen. Doesn't mean we are being radicalised and altered but respect is something not often practised in this modern world and my word is best always seems to be the case, well here on MOS we say fuck that.

That always cracked me up...didn't God create EVERYTHING? What has "he" got to be jealous of?
I've never once been threatened enough by the existence of my boogers to be jealous of even one of 'em.
In the enormity of the universe all of humanity amounts to far, far less than a booger.
And...
God is now a people?!?

MrFreak;424524 said:

.

God said himself he is a jealous god how do think he feels about u praying to other people besides him....

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