Strength without size and heavy weight?

[penguinsfan]

I'll ask a question I threw out to a coworker that has been bodybuilding and powerlifting for over 15 years:

Can a person get really strong without bulking up too much and without using really heavy weight, as one would in a true powerlifting routine? I have some joint issues and I don't want to go really heavy. My left shoulder already has me stopping the bench press when my upper arm is parallel to the floor, rather than going down a couple more inches to my chest. Anyway, this guy said it is possible by using low to moderate weight and really focusing on a slow negative to each rep. I welcome comments and suggestions.

 

[Andithilion]

It's definitely possible to get tons of strength without getting too massive. Ever meet a black-ops commando? My Uncle was one. He could toss me around like a rag doll, and I weigh 250, AND he's like 10 years out of the service, AND He weighs about...185 lbs. I'm thinking high reps and low weight, maybe?

 

[Juggers]

If you do low weight and high reps you will just get more muscle endurance...after a while you won't really be getting that much stronger. You can get stronger without bulking up too much...as a matter of fact thats how MMA fighters are supposed to train as well as grappler's. I suppose the point is to be as small and as strong as possible. So are stuck at one type of weight and want to continue getting stronger at that weight? Well, you can do explosive work witht the weight, speed work, you can do static work too. Just like you mentioned you can also do the slow negatives. There are a lot of things you can do with the same weight....but the thing is how will you know you are getting stronger without increasing the weight?

 

[stumpy]

Its never been possible for me. But some seem to achieve this better than others

 

[penguinsfan]

It's definitely possible to get tons of strength without getting too massive. Ever meet a black-ops commando? My Uncle was one. He could toss me around like a rag doll, and I weigh 250, AND he's like 10 years out of the service, AND He weighs about...185 lbs. I'm thinking high reps and low weight, maybe?

Have you ever asked him about what types of training he has done?

 

[penguinsfan]

If you do low weight and high reps you will just get more muscle endurance...after a while you won't really be getting that much stronger. You can get stronger without bulking up too much...as a matter of fact thats how MMA fighters are supposed to train as well as grappler's. I suppose the point is to be as small and as strong as possible. So are stuck at one type of weight and want to continue getting stronger at that weight? Well, you can do explosive work witht the weight, speed work, you can do static work too. Just like you mentioned you can also do the slow negatives. There are a lot of things you can do with the same weight....but the thing is how will you know you are getting stronger without increasing the weight?

I think I might actually like to take up Ju-Jitsu for some recreation if I can shed enough weight to make it worthwhile.

As for evaluating your strength, you would obvious have to periodically take a session in the gym and see what you can max lift, much as people do now. It's just that going heavy would not be the normal routine.

 

[Juggers]

I think I might actually like to take up Ju-Jitsu for some recreation if I can shed enough weight to make it worthwhile.

As for evaluating your strength, you would obvious have to periodically take a session in the gym and see what you can max lift, much as people do now. It's just that going heavy would not be the normal routine.

Yeah man....take brazilian jiu jitsu its really a fun thing. Would you do Gi or no Gi? I need to get back into myself...I miss it a lot.

 

[penguinsfan]

Yeah man....take brazilian jiu jitsu its really a fun thing. Would you do Gi or no Gi? I need to get back into myself...I miss it a lot.

I would definitely go "no Gi". I think it would be more practical for transitioning to other arts forms. The craze now is MMA or NHB and if I ever decide to dabble in a mixed art form, the Gi techniques would be of little use. In fact, there is a man here in Pittsburgh that has fought in Reality Superfighting and World Extreme Fighting that teaches a couple of different techniques and one of his methods he calls "no Gi suBathmateission" and it's a mixture of Jiu Jitsu, catch wrestling, and other ground techniques.

Being 30, with only one year of martial arts experience many years ago, I have no delusions that I'm going to take the belt from Matt Hughes or anything, but going to a mixed style incorporating striking might be a future interest.

 

[Juggers]

I would definitely go "no Gi". I think it would be more practical for transitioning to other arts forms. The craze now is MMA or NHB and if I ever decide to dabble in a mixed art form, the Gi techniques would be of little use. In fact, there is a man here in Pittsburgh that has fought in Reality Superfighting and World Extreme Fighting that teaches a couple of different techniques and one of his methods he calls "no Gi suBathmateission" and it's a mixture of Jiu Jitsu, catch wrestling, and other ground techniques.

Being 30, with only one year of martial arts experience many years ago, I have no delusions that I'm going to take the belt from Matt Hughes or anything, but going to a mixed style incorporating striking might be a future interest.

You are correct...I do no gi and its really great. Mixing wrestling and BJJ with other grappling forms is growing. Gi is pretty fun to play around with though. There are some practical uses though, because the Gi simulates clothing. In a real fight, you would know how to manipulate your opponents clothing against them, being able to choke them with the lapel, and using the sleeves to control them.

 

[bigeasy]

Similar to what your colleague mentioned, I would focus on slowing the reps down. Keep the low weight that you mentioned, but shoot for 2 seconds up - 2 seconds down. Closer to the end of my workout, I generally incorporate 'holds' into it. Curls for instance, I use 25lbs in each hand and hold them in the upper curl position for 10 seconds at a time. 5 seconds rest in between. Normally about 4 reps of this 10 up 5 down... with about 3 sets. This can basically be used with very low weight and with almost any exercises as long as your form is good.
Good luck with the recovery.

 

[ctmwm]

Hi Juggers, cool avatar BTW. I have been thinking about getting into some for of martial art. My coordination is pretty bad, so I'd like to improve on that and maybe learn some moves that might help me out some day on the street. I have been working out the last 6 months and I'm down 24lbs and have about 15-20 to go. I'm taking it real easy and building muscle nice and slow but evenly and dropping the pounds. So any suggestions on an art?

 

[Juggers]

Hi Juggers, cool avatar BTW. I have been thinking about getting into some for of martial art. My coordination is pretty bad, so I'd like to improve on that and maybe learn some moves that might help me out some day on the street. I have been working out the last 6 months and I'm down 24lbs and have about 15-20 to go. I'm taking it real easy and building muscle nice and slow but evenly and dropping the pounds. So any suggestions on an art?

Take brazilian jiujitsu...find a good school in CT....I live in Ct too. Its kind of complicated to explain, but, its your choice if you want to start off wearing a Gi or do no Gi. You might want to take up some type of striking like boxing too to balance yourself off. If you can find a school that does MMA or NHB fighting do that. Make BJJ your foundation of fighting though. Nothing beats choking someone with a triangle choke or putting someone in an armbar. It will also give you great conditioning.

 

[9cyclops9]

If your shoulder is bothering you when you bench, consider investing in a shoulder horn. Also, you might want to change up your form.

Aside from the shoulder, is there a reason you can't lift heavy weights?

Agreed. It's going to be pretty hard to get strong without doing what makes you strong (heavy weight). Negatives won't do it. You can do more weight on a negative than you can lift, but that doesn't have anything to do with slow training. Slow training just makes you fatigued, and emphasis on negatives just makes you sore.

And maybe you can't use heavy weight in the bench because of your shoulder, but that doesn't mean you can't use heavy weight on squats, deadlifts, rows, pull-ups, calf raises, etc.

Building muscle mass is more about diet than how you train. Eat enough to support exercise, but not so much that you're gaining weight. Pavel Tsatsouline has some good books on strength training without getting bigger, specifically "Power to the People."

 

[supermanx]

you might want to work with a GOOD personal trainer, ie. not the guy you see at your local 24hour fitness, before you REALLY hurt yourself.

 

[penguinsfan]

If your shoulder is bothering you when you bench, consider investing in a shoulder horn. Also, you might want to change up your form.

Aside from the shoulder, is there a reason you can't lift heavy weights?

I've heard of the shoulder horn, but I'm not really familiar with it. Got any good links of articles or reviews I could read?

Aside from my shoulder, I have bad cartlege damage in my knees and I cannot do a direct weight bearing knee bending move, such as a squat, per doctor and therapist orders. This mostly for quads where there will be knee bend. I have been okayed to do a seated leg press and a seated leg extension. I can do most exercises for hamstrings and calves with little problem.

The other episode I sometimes experience is probably a form matter. Sometimes when I work my lats in certain ways, if the weight is too heavy, I'll strain some muscles in the back of my neck and there will be considerable pain for several hours. Again, it is probably form, but I just thought I would seek out any advice that might get me results without going all that heavy.

 

[penguinsfan]

you might want to work with a GOOD personal trainer, ie. not the guy you see at your local 24hour fitness, before you REALLY hurt yourself.

I could probably use some good counsel, although I'm not new to weight lifting. Seems to me that the trainers have as much of a diversity in their opinions as the average joe does.

Cost is somewhat of an issue. I never made all that much money and I just got hit with about a 25% pay cut that is just killing me. When I get a chance, I'd like to train with Eric Hibler of www.practicalfightingconcepts.com. Eric does a lot of MMA/NHB stuff in his training, but has also worked with numerous other athletes and everyday folks that just want to get in great shape.