Historical Blunders

What do you think is the greatest mistake made in history, whether it was political, military, or diplomatic. What were the consequences of that mistake and how does it affect how things are today?

I personally think it might be Britain's and France's appeasement of Hitler, or maybe the decline and fall of the Roman empire, or maybe even going to war with Iraq.

thats a really hard question, almost impossible considering the butterfly effect/chaos theory.

I agree, that's almost impossible to answer - but a very cool exercise. Maybe change the focus to favorite historical blunder (or even bad call?) to make it a little more accessable. I'm not sure what I'd pick just off the top of my head . . .

Originally posted by Swank:

Maybe change the focus to favorite historical blunder (or even bad call?) to make it a little more accessable.

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Ok, I'm game- what is your Favorite historical blunder whether it political, military, or diplomatic?

Ok just to clarify, by favorite im sure you mean the most personally impactful or somthing like that. I could just see people complaining about anyone saying "the holocaust was my favorite".

Anyway, my contribution, umm I'd say Iraq, simply because of the misinformation out there, alterior motives, manipulation and brainwashing.

See somthing like the Holocaust is plain to see for everyone. The world can learn from that huge mistake, and everyone knows the truth about it. But i can see that the war in Iraq, even long after its over, people are still gonna be defending it and saying that it was the right thing to do.

War is never right. War is terror.

I think I agree. Of course right now we can't know the long term effects, but I think the decision to invade Iraq could turn out to be the worst mistake at least in US history. Time will tell.

kooky

originally posted by Shithead:

War is never right. War is terror.

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You're absolutely right. I'm personally against any and all wars that involve in particular the killing of innocent civilians.

That being said, sure Iraq is a mistake, and we definetly should'nt make any harsh judgements on it just yet. Anyway time will tell. But I think one of the biggest mistakes is if Britain and France had taken a tougher stance with Hitler, then WW2 and the 50 million deaths caused by that war could have been avoided.
And quite possibly the decline and fall of the Roman Empire. I know it was not a single event and happened over a couple hundred years, but it was a mistake to create 2 emperors, and in effect 2 empires. How much more peaceful the world would be if we were united under a common language and political system.
I think (and I know I am going to get critized highly for this) that the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagaski was the biggest mistake of world history. It killed 300,000 innocent civilians in the worst terrorist attack of the history of humanity.

Kal,

>I think (and I know I am going to get critized highly for this) that the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagaski was the biggest mistake of world history. It killed 300,000 innocent civilians in the worst terrorist attack of the history of humanity.<

So, how is this different from the Japanese killing of MILLIONS of innocent people of many nationalities during the same period? The A bombs were worse than the killing of six millinon Jews by the Germans? How about the three million killed by the KHydromaxer Rouge after the US turned tail in southeast asia? Ghengis Khan? Kubla Khan? Or are your senses solely impacted by time frame?

How many innocent lives would have been sacrificed if the Allies had had to invade Japan?

You really are one of the US haters, aren't you?

Bigger

Originally posted by bib:

So, how is this different from the Japanese killing of MILLIONS of innocent people of many nationalities during the same period? The A bombs were worse than the killing of six millinon Jews by the Germans? How about the three million killed by the KHydromaxer Rouge after the US turned tail in southeast asia? Ghengis Khan? Kubla Khan? Or are your senses solely impacted by time frame?

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Those are all terrorist acts or genocide as far as I am concerned. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was 100% civilian targets. We known that the Americans knew that the Japenese were asking the Russians to mediate a peace with its enemies. We also know that the US looked at the 12 million Red army soldiers in Eastern Europe and saw that it needed to demonstrate the awesome power of this weapon as a deterent against possible soviet agression. Furthermore, it is part of the soldier's life that he accept he may get killed in battle. But NO civilian should have to expect to be incinerated along with their family and city.

You really are one of the US haters, aren't you?

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No, I just think we are/did already make the wrong desicions. As I think a world in peace is always more preferable and more constructive.

Kal,

>No, I just think we are/did already make the wrong desicions. As I think a world in peace is always more preferable and more constructive.<

Surely that is absolutely correct. However, it is not practical because throughout history, there have always been men who wanted something greater, usually more power, and will do anything to acheive their goals. You might call them evil. When these men come along, and make their goals plain, you should always hope their are others around to thwart their aims.

The only thing that history has proven so far, is that democracy is more likely to push a country toward peace. Democracy is more peaceful than a totalitarian system. If people in a true democracy were to attempt huge power grabs, the population would remove them.

We can debate the merits of the A bombs against Japan till the cows come home. You obviously will take the stance that they should not have been used at all, under any circumstance.

I would take the stance that given the previous conduct of Japan, how they treated other conquered people, their absolute refusal to surrender in the stepping stone islands, how they would have reacted to the invasion of the home islands, the bombs were warranted. Especially since nobody truly knew what this new technology would do. The fact that Japan still would not surrender after the first bomb speaks volumes.

I do not understand your above explanation of the differences between the use of the A bombs in Japan, and the other much more massive examples of civilian deaths.

What I find interesting is, you always seem to want to bash the US ahead of much worse cases of civilian deaths. This to me truly shows your thoughts.

My question is, what is your background, education? How old are you? How did you become this way? I truly am interested in how someone could come to be like this.

I always try to look at both sides of an issue, and get as many facts as possible. Then, I try to evaluate the facts on my own to come to my own conclusions without preconceived bias. It seems that you always fall on the side against the US in whatever question in on the table. Whatever the facts, you appear to want to look at the US in the worst light possible, believing whatever is negative, even if not logical. And conversely give a pass to any other nation or government.

Bigger

Originally posted by Bib:

What I find interesting is, you always seem to want to bash the US ahead of much worse cases of civilian deaths. This to me truly shows your thoughts.

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I am not intentionally "bashing" the US, I'm just pointing out mostly this administration's hipocracy.

My question is, what is your background, education? How old are you? How did you become this way? I truly am interested in how someone could come to be like this.

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Bib, everyone has their views, do they not? At all costs, we must respect them. Last year was definetly a turning point for me, as my cousin's best friend was in Iraq and came home for the holidays, and after all that he said, I could'nt be for this bloodshed anymore, human life is extremely valuable, and the US forces are being used based on lies, I'm sorry you don't see that, Let me ask you this: Are you willing to die for your beleif in this war?

Well, regardless of the other stuff, the A-bombs were horrible, but the end result probably more saved Japanese civillians than the alternatives. Most historians, Japanese and American, recognize that the bombing campaigns and invasion tactics that would have been needed to overthrow Japan's military extremist government would have resulted in far more casualties than the atomic bombs. They were used because the fear and horror created by that kind of destruction essentially shocked the Japanese into surrender. A long and drawn out land invasion campaign on the Japanese mainland or months of ariel bombing were the only other options.

I don't believe, however, that I've ever heard anybody justify dropping the nukes by saying "well they killed lots of innocents as well" before this thread. US military policy is not some eye for an eye type bullshit or "they did it first" finger pointing - when massive loss of life like that is involved it takes something far more real and humane than "they're bad!" to justify the use of such catstrophic force. In this case strategists forecasted that the total losses of Japanese civillians and our own troops would be far less if the war could be ended then and there, and unfortunately that was the only mechanism we had at the time.

Well I guess everybody has an opinion so here's mine. If you will think back real hard you might remember an attack on American soil called Pearl Harbor. Almost all wars the United Stated has been involved in has taken place on foreign soil. Just the fact that they would attack our country is justification for using any and everything available. It simply amazes me at the thought process of some people. Heck, I'll agree that the current administration is failing the people but I firmly believe that the Bush administration was the lesser of two evils. Hillary C. will probably be on the demacratic ticket in a few years. God help us all if she were to be elected.

"Bib, everyone has their views, do they not? At all costs, we must respect them. Last year was definetly a turning point for me, as my cousin's best friend was in Iraq and came home for the holidays, and after all that he said, I could'nt be for this bloodshed anymore, human life is extremely valuable, and the US forces are being used based on lies, I'm sorry you don't see that, Let me ask you this: Are you willing to die for your beleif in this war?" -Kal-el

That is an excellant post. As most of you know, my wife recently returned from Iraq and I(as she) was/is 100% against the war in Iraq. Her parents are huge Bush supporters and justified the war about how Saddam was such a danger to his people and how much he hated America etc...I asked them almost the same question. IS their belief in this war or their belief that it was up to the US to remove Saddam worth their daughter's life? Is that an unfair question to ask a parent? Yes. But I don't think they realized that until that statement hit home with them.

This last election was the first ever that I voted democrat. I will do so again in 2008 regardless if Clinton is on the ticket or not. Where I used to believe 100% in the GOP party, now I have no faith in what they are trying to accomplish. I also don't agree with the religious far right trying to legislate (their)morality in this country.

kooky

The worst mistake was giving women any rights. I wish I lived in the day where a woman didn't think for herself and took the hog like a Champion. Now they want equal rights and shit...

Seriously though the worst mistake I think was 9/11. Followed by the Iraq invasions. Won't be long until the majority use common sense to figure out why that was a mistake.

Kal,

>I am not intentionally "bashing" the US, I'm just pointing out mostly this administration's hipocracy.<

Actually, I was writing of your choosing the use of A bombs against Japan, over other much more horrific events by other countries. Had nothing to do with the current administration. Though interesting that you jumped to that.

>Bib, everyone has their views, do they not? At all costs, we must respect them. Last year was definetly a turning point for me, as my cousin's best friend was in Iraq and came home for the holidays, and after all that he said, I could'nt be for this bloodshed anymore, human life is extremely valuable, and the US forces are being used based on lies<

I love hearing your opinions. It gives me pause. I just wanted to know what your time on earth has been like, in brief, education, parents opinions, etc, to see how you became as you are. No harm intended.

Interesting that you seem to have based your Iraq opinions on one report from Iraq. When all evidence seems to point to very large support from the military, especially enlisted guys serving in Iraq, for the current administration.

>I'm sorry you don't see that, Let me ask you this: Are you willing to die for your beleif in this war?<

I surely am, and would.

Swank,

>I don't believe, however, that I've ever heard anybody justify dropping the nukes by saying "well they killed lots of innocents as well" before this thread. <

If this was aimed at me, I do not know what you mean. Could you explain, and show me exactly what you are referring to?

Bigger

Sorry if I'm being a jerk but has anyone studied history? We should be talking about the worst historical blunders in all of history not just the last two years. In 20, 50 maybe a hundred years people might be able to say that Iraq was a big deal, maybe its because women are wearing "I Heart W" pins in the middle east or maybe the U.S. is no more. But what if Chingis Khan hadn't united the hordes, what if Napoleon hadn't existed or Waterloo hadn't happened, how about if Brutus hadn't betrayed Julius Caesar? I'd be pretty disappointed if the true events that shaped our existence had already been forgotten.

"So, how is this different from the Japanese killing of MILLIONS of innocent people of many nationalities during the same period?"

Bib, I did interpret this comment to suggest that you fealt the use of the bombs was somehow justified by their poor war-time conduct. It has never been the policy of the US military to change out conduct or standards of acceptable tactics just because the enemy may not hold themselves to the same principles, i.e. we wouldn't use chemical weapons on civillians even if our enemies did so, we wouldn't abuse or murder prisoners of war just because out enemies did, ect. Perhaps I misinterpreted, but I do bristle at the suggestion of justifying any of our military actions by citing examples of what other countries have done. I believe the US should, and generally has made it's own decisions based on our own standards.

It strikes me as the same sort of commentary I used to make to my parents when they when scold me as a kid: "Well yeah, maybe I broke the lamp, but Tommy broke a window!" Somehow I fealt the worse behavior of any other friends or siblings should excuse my own trespasses. I fail to see the logic behind the argument if one approaches the world with a general sense of reverence fort human life and compassion.

I believe the use of the bombs was in fact justified, but only because I believe the argument that they saved more lives in the end than they took is convincing. Everything else is essentially meaningless to me when I consider that specific issue. I still, however, find the circumstances and description of nuclear assault to be truly horrific and it is something of a dark day for the world, regardless of its benefits.

"But what if Chingis Khan hadn't united the hordes, what if Napoleon hadn't existed or Waterloo hadn't happened, how about if Brutus hadn't betrayed Julius Caesar?"

This is much more along the lines of what I had hoped would be discussed. One might argue for instance, that though it's a non-specific event, that contracting with the barbarian tribes for so long was a fatal error for the Roman Empire, or similar such conjectures. So far as contemporary history, I'm shocked that nobody has nominated Vietnam as a costly and terrible blunder, yet Iraq is quickly listed as our greatest error. How quickly we forget.

Anyway, I agree this thread already has little to do with history, and particularly what we all think are some particularly interesting miscalculations.

Bib, before this whole war begun, I liked to consider myself a "centrist" or "moderate", after hearing my cousins' friends' view of this conflict, it all went downhill. Heck, the first time around I admit I voted for W, not this time though. This soldier told me he was stationed in Bagdad. He said his sergeant would say things like, "If you decide to kill a civilian, do it, I'd rather spend the afternoon filling out forms then get one of my guys killed by some sandnigger." He said the people HATE the occupiers and they continuosly ask why they are being torn away from their loved ones, or when will you leave? And he said, "Whatever you do, DON"T put Bush back in the White House."
He said some more, but I'm sure you don't want to hear it. Anyway, I know this is only 1 person's perspective, but even you have to admit that the tide is changing fast. Everyday more and more Americans are against this war.