The First Tenet of Foreskin Restoration

K

kong1971

1
Okay, I am sure this is going to cause a ruckus, but I think this needs to be put out there and discussed in a civil manner (note to self: be civil!).

The reason so many men get hot about FR is the first basic tenet of foreskin restoration itself, which is this:

An uncircumcised penis is more desireable to have than a circumcised penis.

It is the simple, irrefutable basis of restoration. This is the belief which draws men to restore and sets them on their long journey. There is no way that we restorers can get around this, and it is hard to discuss it without offending others who do not feel the same way.

I have been thinking about this pretty hard. How can I talk about restoration without pissing someone off, because when I talk about it, I am basically implying that being uncut is better than being cut. It is basically unproveable and it offends men who like being circumcised. So what do we do?

Do we pussyfoot around and hope nobody gets irate? Do we just talk about it and ignore the guys who don't believe. I have been in the habit of trying to verbally slap them down when they intrude, but that apparently doesn't work! :D I am looking for some input, so let me know what you think. How do we talk about this without hurting their feelings?
 
I don't have a problem with anybody pursuing FR, and in fact the restored foreskin is more desirable . . .

To The Person Restoring.

Doesn't hold true for all men and women, obviously.

I'm basically the person the post is referring to, so, let me be ther first to say I've never felt angered by FR or the idea that some men would rather not have been circumcised.

As always, the reason I post on the topic is I think some of the claims about what FR does for you and the effects of circumcision are a mixture of internet hype and fantasy. I want men to research the issue from a variety of different sources and think over what some of the claims are surrounding FR before they make a final decision based soley on what people on this forum say about it.

In some ways I think this is almost poor advice on my part due to the nature of most of the information on the internet. For more about that, check out my thread titled "A Little More About My Intentions," or something to that effect.
 
I truly understand now what you are trying to say about foreskin restoration info...and all the hype and horror stories-- on both sides of the issue. You are right about one thing. Refering them to the internet to get the real scoop is about as helpful as all the "proof" we've been shooting at each other lately.

That's not really the issue of this thread, if you read it closely, but I don't know what else to do about your point. All I can say think is that the best thing for us to do is communicate with one another in this forum about what we have discovered and are experiencing. We restorers shouldn't be punished or verbally bashed if we come up with something kooky, tho, which I have been.

If you have no interest, why should it bother you...unless, as I said earlier, it somehow hurts your feelings?

Ha! I did get this thread back on topic!

Finally, swank. We are only growing some skin. We not hanging 100 lbs of weight from our weiners or exposing them to hard vacuum. We're tugging and taping, pretty harmless. No one is being exposed to danger, and so what if some of us feel like we are on a spiritual healing journey? Why should that disturb anyone or make them feel like they have to "bring us to our senses"?
 
Kong, what was the issue of the threads then, in your opinion?

I would also disagree that you've been verbally bashed in any manner. As you'll recall, you were a good deal more aggressive and beligerent with your language and tone. That's all done anyways, not sure why it is an issue worth mentioning here.

As I have repeated often, and clearly, I am not against FR, nor does it offend me or emtionally harm me in any way. You have repeatedly suggested this fact must be the case and the real reason that I don't buy into it. This is simply not true. I have said this is not the case repeatedly in this debate and previously. I am unsure as to why you keep asking me if I am bothered by it personally or if it makes me upset when I have said that it does not on numerous occasions.

I believe most of the benefits associated with FR here are very questionable, and the same goes for many of the negatives attributed to circumcision.

I think that the forum is a one-sided informational source on FR and circumcision, and that it heavily favors an extreme perspective on both. I disagree with this perspective and made a case for my own.

I believe this is useful because some people are less adept than others at critically judging information and will read the majority of info found here and take it as genuine fact. I also believe that younger men probably look at these forums and could easily become alarmed or upset about their bodies due to the opinions you post regarding circumcision. As the testimonial on my other thread states, much of this information about circumcision comes from groups that freely circulate completely unfounded and false information in an effort to further their cause.

It is my opinion that circumcision is an unecessary but normally benign procedure. It is also my opinion that it is HIGHLY unlikely that FR will make your penis larger in length or girth, significantly increase a woman's sexual pleasure, or allow her to orgasm when previousl incapable. It is also impossible to grow new nerve tissue. These are just a few of the primary points I take issue with, but not the only ones.

I have never accused anybody pursuing FR of being crazy or stupid, and I think a read of the threads where we have debated the topic will fully demonstrate this. I have clear reasons for posting as I have and have explained them fully and clearly multiple times. I would like to not have to repeat myself anymore in the future, so for a final time:

1. I am not emotionally threatened or bothered by the pursuit of FR.

2. I do not think that people who decide to FR are crazy or stupid.

3. I believe that circumcision is an unecessary procedure, but that it is nowhere near as harmful to men's sexual, mental, and physical health as expressed here and on numerous internet resources.

4. I express my views on these issues because I feel another perspective ought to be expressed in an entirely one-sided forum, and I also believe that the views commonly expressed in the forum can have negative consequences for some individuals.

It's a debate over the issues. This may encompass the expression of an opinion or claim, the refutation of another's ideas or claims, presentations of evidence to support either argument, and necessarily, debate over the decisivness and value of the offered evidence.

I have an interest in the matter as a result of my learning about it on these boards and having had previous debates about FR's merits and circumcision. If this where a forum or thread on 'penis pills' or something similarly reviled, the questioning of their proponent's belief in their validity would not be an issue. The claims about FR have rarely been challenged here and it seems many men find them reasonable, and in this respect I am going against the status quo by questioning their validity.

The reward of pursuing this is that I believe having my views posted will raise points that some men may not have previously considered, allowing them to make a more informed opinion that is not based entirely on a single school of thought, or ideally to conduct further investigation into the issues on their own.
 
Also Kong, I am unsure if you are using quotations around the phrase "bring us to our senses" to add styalization to you sentence or to suggest that you are quoating me.

I sincerely hope it is the former, as I have not made that comment, and I have asked you not to misquote me or to suggest I have expressed opinions which I have not.

To clarify: I have never suggested that anybody pursuing FR needs to be brought to their senses. Please do not be confused by Kong's post.
 
Of course it is one sided. It is a forum for men who ARE restoring. It is not an informational site, we do not pass out literature or target anyone.
Of course you think it is hype, because you haven't done it. You can't understand what you are missing (you are missing something at least physically) when you never have had it.
When Kong went too far in his assumption we called him out on it. One extremist view that is debated by other extremist view doesn't help anything. For the most part, people have simply reported what they have experienced. Some have experienced size gains. You need to accept that.
How can you not see that you do have emotional issues with it? You already admitted to. You can't use rhetoric to hide that anymore. I don't care how well you can argue. You got depressed because an anti-circ group hurt you, and now you are taking it out here. Abyone who finds this site is most likely insecure about their penis to begin with. This is a way to help.
Again, we do not distribute literature. You are barking up the wrong tree.
 
Ouch, raffiki. Prepare for another very long rebuttal. I'm not really reading them anymore, just skimming! ;) The main problems I have with swank are 1) he hasn't tried it, so how can he know? How can he judge which claims have merit and which do not? How can he know anything about it at all? It's like a white man saying he understands how it feels to be a black man. 2) he's not being honest when he says he's nuetral...there's something there or he wouldn't care as much. Ancient China doesn't agree, but he's not here all the time, reading and trying to disrupt every thread. He just spanks me when I say something a little too crazy! 3) he's extremely stuck on himself. If I put "quotation" marks on something, he thinks I'm trying to misquote him. Often I am just trying to highlight that word. But he does have the right to think I am trying to misquote him, I guess.
 
kong1971 said:
An uncircumcised penis is more desireable to have than a circumcised penis.

It is the simple, irrefutable basis of restoration. This is the belief which draws men to restore and sets them on their long journey. There is no way that we restorers can get around this, and it is hard to discuss it without offending others who do not feel the same way.
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Kong, i agree with you on this... but it is only true for the few men who want to restore and not for all circ'ed men. I do in fact have intentions of restoring in the future, but it just doesn't empassion me as it does you and others. And for the record, although i want to restore, i don't find an uncirc'ed penis more desirable nor more visually appealing. In fact, when i've mentioned to my wife that i plan on doing this in the future she was totally against it. Her and her friends' experience with uncirc'ed penis' was that they didn't like the look or the smell.

I have been thinking about this pretty hard. How can I talk about restoration without pissing someone off, because when I talk about it, I am basically implying that being uncut is better than being cut. It is basically unproveable and it offends men who like being circumcised. So what do we do?

Do we pussyfoot around and hope nobody gets irate? Do we just talk about it and ignore the guys who don't believe. I have been in the habit of trying to verbally slap them down when they intrude, but that apparently doesn't work! :D I am looking for some input, so let me know what you think. How do we talk about this without hurting their feelings?
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I think that you shouldn't worry about pissing anyone off when talking about FR, but you yourself also shouldn't get pissed off if someone doesn't agree. Sort of an agreement to disagree... I don't think you should pussyfoot or ignore anyone, just communicate to one another. If they don't agree with you - so what, and if you don't agree with them - so what. In the grand scheme of things it's a personal belief/choice, who's really right or wrong? We're all gonna do what we want to do and damn everyone else.
 
Thanks, sikdogg. When I say one is more desirable to have than the other, it is exactly that. For RESTORERS it is more desirable. It is no different than saying, "I like the color blue more than the color red." It is perfectly fine for others to argue with me and say, "No, the color red is better than the color blue."

The point is, there is a certain level of censorship going on here at [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words], where restorers are only allowed to say certain things without being accused of being one-sided or crazy and being required to qualify their beliefs.

In the end, swank's assertion that I am being one-sided is just as much an OPINION as my beliefs, so why are they being pushed on me?
 
kong1971 said:
Thanks, sikdogg. When I say one is more desirable to have than the other, it is exactly that. For RESTORERS it is more desirable. It is no different than saying, "I like the color blue more than the color red." It is perfectly fine for others to argue with me and say, "No, the color red is better than the color blue."
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I couldn't agree with you more...

The point is, there is a certain level of censorship going on here at [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words], where restorers are only allowed to say certain things without being accused of being one-sided or crazy and being required to qualify their beliefs.
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I don't think that there's any censorship going on here... just that i think everyone should be required to qualify/quantify claims at times. It happens on the Penis Enlargement forum all the time, we all make claims of our dicks getting bigger but instead of waiting for someone to ask us to prove it... you, myself, and alot of others have taken it upon themselves to post pics of our dicks to quantify our claims. But then again, how many times have you seen posts asking for a picture confirmation of a claim??

In the end, swank's assertion that I am being one-sided is just as much an OPINION as my beliefs, so why are they being pushed on me?
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No, it is a fact just as he is being one-sided. All debates/agruments are always one-sided with respect to each claim. That is why debates are good cuz it allows everyone else to see both sides.
 
How is my giving my opinion on the matter censorship? I don't see disagreeing and saying so as being in any way related not allowing another to do the same.

If I were somehow banned from posting or told that I can't anymore without fear of penalty - that would be censorship.

Who's forcing an opinion on you? As I explained, I intend to just publicize other ideas about FR and circumcision than are presented here. There is nothing that says this forum is just for men already restoring. It very much is a resource of information for visitors to the forum, if not be intention than by default.

Raffiki, you take issue with some of my posting, just as I take issue with some of Kongs. As a result you post, announcing your opinion. I have done the same. Some people disagree with me and agree with Kong, some people agree with me and disagree with Kong. Do you understand that your grievances, and your right to voice them, are the same as my own? Just because I don't agree with your view doesn't mean I have any right to tell you not to post. As Kong as expressed, these are mearly our opinions.

Kong, feel free to skim or skip, but I hope my PM was read in full as I took a great deal of time to address your concerns and clarify your questions.

I also do not think it is particularly irrational to wonder if you are indeed suggesting I said something when a statement is obviously intended to be a summarization of my opinion and contains quotation marks around a phrase. I explained in advance I realized that may not be the case but also said I felt it should be clarified regardless. Please read carefully before making posts that concern me, my opinions, or commentary.
 
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Kong, making fun of me for making long posts is your choice, but I don't think it really disuades people from reading them.

I prefer to fully explain myself in clear and decisive language so there cannot be any question as to what I mean. I don't need emoticons or useless commentary to get a point across.
 
Can we all agree then, that being circumcised is inherently more harmful than not being circumcised?

There's really no debate with this point.
 
There is no debate, having your penis butchered under a knife is worse than leaving your penis alone. Doesnt that make sense?
 
That's why discussing this is SO FREAKIN FRUSTRATING. Too many people think (or at least insist) that circumcision is about as harmful as popping a pimple.
 
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I don't understand the frustration... the people that feel the same as you will restore, the rest who don't won't. No sense crying over spilled milk... I think that most people here don't agree with the continued practice of it but it's still out of yours and my hands. We can discuss the pros and cons of it all day and in the end, the people that want to continue it for religious or other reasons will continue to have the doc snip their kids.

The good thing about discussing this topic is that more people are now exposed to the subject as before. What's unfortunate is that in the grand scheme of things, our group on this board is just a drop in the bucket when compared to the number of males that have never heard of FR. If you truely find that FR is your mission, then you need to take your crusade beyond the borders of [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words]. Fact is... these debates have done more for getting the word out on circumcision then anything that you guys have done in the past.
 
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Very true, sikdogg.

I think the frustration MDC is talking about is not so much someone saying, "Yeah, I know all that, but I just like being cut..." than someone saying, "Oh, you guys are crazy! FR doesn't have any real benefits. Circumcision is good for you. All that stuff you talk about is in your head." The difference is, someone who dogs FR may dissuade another person from trying it...and that might be a person that FR could really help.

Finally, FR is basically penis enlargement at its core. You're growing skin. Its no different than clamping or stretching, and I think DLD understands that, even though he has little interest in FR. What better place to be than [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words]? :)
 
It's that many people can't imagine circumcision being harmful (I guess they might in cases where the baby dies, or has to become a baby "girl" because of complications). The people that think you're crazy if you suggest that babies should not have most of their penis skin amputated for no reason other than the parent's desire.

I get along just fine despite being circumcised. But that doesn't mean that I should be ok with it being done to other babies.
 
I hear ya bro... although i'm not bitter about being cut, i sometimes wish i wasn't cut. What's interesting is that i wasn't cut at birth like most but when i was a teen as is the practice for my culture.
 
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