against_odds21 said:
Saw a thread like this in another forum manifest in a Bush bash too. Its easy for you to sit back and point your fingers eh? Many were fools for not leaving and I only have pity on those that couldn't, primarily the elderly and sick. Stop the rebels right away eh duppi? Shoot to kill a few to control the chaos and then hear you complain about that? Police get sniped at and helicopters shot at and you have the nerve to say they should have acted quicker? Pfft. First concerns were rescue. Should they not have been?

So easy to criticize.

If you didn't see some of the morally, socially, criminally poor check out this putfile clip.

I have yet to actually read anything that officially comfirms these supposed shootings at helicopters. It really seemed for a while that the news only wanted to focus on the bad things going on. But the whole time people were wondering on air why there was such a slow and insufficient response. Bush and the administration along with Congress would have to take blame. If we didn't have such a pro-corporate President and cabinet maybe the wetlands wouldn't have been drained and developed. That definitely played a role in the damage and loss of lives too.
 
Dashdeming said:
I have been in the zone already and I know what I saw and what the 100's of devistated people told me directly. The good people were in that situation and not shooting at the help. It is a couple of gangs of thugs that are roaming the streets in the darkness of night and doing all of the terrible criminal acts. These acts have nothing to do with forcing these thugs to do these things for survival. It is all about taking advantage of a bad situation and doing exactly what they already had been doing to a much lesser scale. Thse people were evil before the event and are ruthless with the lights out and little police available. I am headed back into the north side today and will stay for about 58 hours to provide support. Pray for me please.

Thank god for you and I'll pray for your safety as I know people there. Whoever was looting supplies are not to be blamed. The people shooting are evil and like I said unforgivable. However the people that have lost everything and we're waiting around for days...I can't see how anyone but someone in that situation can be blamed for stealing supplies or a bus for instance to get out of town. Whatever happens happens regardless of the fortune or misfortune thereafter, but those such occurences were for survival and in that situation people become desperate and take chances.
 
Thanks. I too do not blame those that are taking for survival.

The Bush administration had nothing to do with building in the wetlands, nor did Clinton and go back as far as you want. States are in full authority for such things but, in this case the area was well developed before reguations were put in place. You could blame it all on Lafayette. Lafayette was a lawless scoundrel that went there because it was such a hard area to live and he felt no one would come there looking for him.

The fact still remains, the state government is in charge and responsible. That is why we are call called the UNITED States and not just the states. All states have autonomy and the fed is there to deal with the common issues rather than the specific issues of the states (and all stated have their own unique issues). Even more of an interesting dynamic is that fact that Louisiana still insists upon operating under Napoleonic law unlike the other 49 states.
 
Dashdeming said:
I have been in the zone already and I know what I saw and what the 100's of devistated people told me directly. The good people were in that situation and not shooting at the help. It is a couple of gangs of thugs that are roaming the streets in the darkness of night and doing all of the terrible criminal acts. These acts have nothing to do with forcing these thugs to do these things for survival. It is all about taking advantage of a bad situation and doing exactly what they already had been doing to a much lesser scale. Thse people were evil before the event and are ruthless with the lights out and little police available. I am headed back into the north side today and will stay for about 58 hours to provide support. Pray for me please.



God Bless You, DD. I wish I were there. I would join you. All I can do is donate money.

Question: Isn't the Army Corps of Engineers under the control of the Federal Government?
 
goinfor11x7 said:
God Bless You, DD. I wish I were there. I would join you. All I can do is donate money.

Question: Isn't the Army Corps of Engineers under the control of the Federal Government?


The corp of engineers do get involved with some water retention projects at teh request of states. A huge problem in the New Orleans area is that the salty ocean water has more available head, or in other words, is at a higher level than the fresh water table height. THis means that much of the vegitation in the area is dead and dying and therefore no longer doing a good job at controlling erosion. So the land has been allowed to deteriorate by the city, parish and state government (in the order of responsibility) and this leads to disaster. Let me state clearly to all of you, this is not just aq hurricane issue. It is, in fact, a failure of the local governments to control flooding of their land. Period. The record will eventually show that flooding killed the large numbers of people due to exactly what I am saying. Not the hurricane. This exact same thing would have happened without the hurricane except it might have had more deaths because people would not have left New Orleans with no warning. The death of these people are on the heads of the New Orleans myor and many of the past mayors as well as parish council and lastly the governors and past governors. This is an old problem that has been very well documented. Go search the Picayune Times newspaper website for articles in 2002. There was a whole series written and published in this paper describing exactly what has happened. THe predictions were very close. Not hard to predict really with all of the 3rd world country
 
iwant8inches said:
Thank god for you and I'll pray for your safety as I know people there. Whoever was looting supplies are not to be blamed. The people shooting are evil and like I said unforgivable. However the people that have lost everything and we're waiting around for days...I can't see how anyone but someone in that situation can be blamed for stealing supplies or a bus for instance to get out of town. Whatever happens happens regardless of the fortune or misfortune thereafter, but those such occurences were for survival and in that situation people become desperate and take chances.

Yea, I could see if the "looters" were stealing medical supplies, food, water, or other neccesaties, but no, some were taking [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/mosdvd.htm]DVD[/words] players, PS2's, and big screen tVs. And some of them were uniformed officers! These people have no morals at all, and they are taking full advantage of a totally bad situation. Officers of the law are supposed to strive to set an example for the rest of us. I believe at the very least, they should be fired.
 
I don't think any one state has had anything to do with changing the Colorado, Mississippi, or any of our major rivers.

I agree that the states are autonomous, and that responsibility falls in an order from municipal, state, etc. But an event such as Katrina involved multiple states. This wasn't just a flood in N.O. This storm hit Florida, Mississippli, Louisianna. It threatened the entire Gulf region. At that stage, the Feds have to take the point. They're the only ones that have the vast resources needed to deal with event such as this, or should have the resources. It seems to me, though, that they also had their heads up their asses.
 
jGman,

>I agree that the states are autonomous, and that responsibility falls in an order from municipal, state, etc. But an event such as Katrina involved multiple states. This wasn't just a flood in N.O. This storm hit Florida, Mississippli, Louisianna. It threatened the entire Gulf region. At that stage, the Feds have to take the point. They're the only ones that have the vast resources needed to deal with event such as this, or should have the resources. It seems to me, though, that they also had their heads up their asses.<

Nope, they cannot do it. The federal government must be invited into a situation within any individual state. The federal assets are then turned over to the state for use. The reasoning being that the local and state governments know much better where and what assets are needed. In this case, Mississippi did things fairly quickly. Louisiana did not.

In fact, the governor of La, Blanco, did not have a clue what was needed. The Mayor of N.O. did not either know or communicate what was needed, except to do a bunch of cussing on a radio show. It seemed they took the old socialist adage of calling on Big Daddy, the federal government to cure their problems. That is not how the system is set up. They totally abdicated their responsibilities.

Bush decared disaters areas TWO DAYS before the hurricane hit. He did everything legally needed WAY before he needed to, or legally should have. This gave the states the ability to call on whatever federal assets they needed, DHS and FEMA in particular. The National Guard is already under the auspices of the individual state governments. As is the Corp of Engineers. But Bush even took the unusual steps needed to allow the Ms. and La. governors to call on regular military.

Federal assets were then prepositioned before the storm hit, but they were not nearly enough for the resulting disaster. Who made the decisions on what was to be pre-positioned, and where? The mayor of N.O. and the governor.

Unbelievable, but N.O. did not even take their own advice: They did not evacuate their prisoners, and then simply released them when things looked bleak. Then they were amazed at the examples of social anarchy.

I am sure there will be many investigations of the La situation. If anything, Bush will probably come under fire for overstepping his bounds within an individual state. I have the feeling he told DOD to do whatever was needed to cure the situation, the governor and mayor be damned.

That is legally not the way it is supposed to work.

Funny how before things became bleakest, all of the Dems in Louisiana were saying how great Bush was for providing anything they needed. They could not say enough nice things about the administration, FEMA, et al.

Bigger
 
goinfor11x7 said:
How much you want to bet when they pump the water out, and start doing a body count, most of the dead will be the elderly, the sick, small children and infants--those least able to take care of themselves?

Given that such people would have the most trouble fleely from danger and seeking higher ground, I'll bet the farm on it. So?
 
goinfor11x7 said:
How much you want to bet when they pump the water out, and start doing a body count, most of the dead will be the elderly, the sick, small children and infants--those least able to take care of themselves?

Last year, when the extreme heat wave hit France, I think it was the elderly that were killed. Perplexing, isn't it. :s
 
Bib - You are a wise man. I would have duplicated some of what you said had I not read your post first.

Many people are playing the blame game now. Don't blame. Do. When 9/11 happened, Rudi G didn't wait for the governer or President to step up. He immediately started to direct the efforts to save as many lives as possible. It was HIS city, not the governer's city, not the president's city. It was days of the NO Mayor whining and complaining about nobody doing anything to help his city out. There should have been a plan in place years ago. Even the mayor didn't evacuate and got stuck.

People are criticising Bush for cutting funding for the Levee Reconstruction efforts, thus causing the flooding. Last year, he did cut the budget from $21B to about $4B if I remember correctly. Had the full amount been given, the project would be completed in 2015, which would have done absolutely nothing to help this situation.

As for the Feds stepping in to take control, Bush has asked twice to do that. The governer of LA has denied both requests, not wanting the Feds to be in control of "her state".

So many people can point fingers. Yes, it is a terrible situation. Many people are suffering and dying when they don't have to be. However, there are military personnel going door to door right now throughout all of NO literally begging people to leave their houses that are flooded and filled with sewage and god knows what else. The can not force people to leave and many people WANT to stay. How much more effort is required now to go and beg people to leave a situation not fit for humans?

I'm not saying that the Federal Government couldn't have done something differently, but other than being a tyrant, Bush did what he could. FEMA dropped the ball without a doubt.

I can't wrap my head around everything going on with this. I just hope people stop blaming and start acting. It's sad that anyone would start playing partisan politics when American lives are still in the balance.

Sorry. I'll step off of the soap box now.
 
I was raised to believe that we are all our brothers' and our sisters' keepers. To me, this is a moral and human issue, not political, social, economic, or whatever. It took an awfully long time for people to reach out to those who, for whatever reasons, don't have the voices to ask for help. Imagine how many people could have been saved.
 
Most of you are missing the real problem here which is spread out all over America and any other country that has raised generations of Welfare/Dole/Social Services dependant people.

Most of the people who stayed behind have been raised to expect that the Govt. will take care of them, in almost every way. This expectation is believed to be a "right"!

This external dependancy has stripped the ability to think independantly. The people were waiting around with the expectation that all will be all right because the govt. will take care of them. This is a false security that will always keep people down on the bottom, because a successful society depends on people taking personal responsibity for all of their actions and outcomes.

Almost all of these people could have afforded the $20 bus fare to get out of NO, but most were waiting for the bus to stop in front of their house, knock on the door and tell them what to do. That is how the system has always worked before.

This is personally not the fault of the individuals today, as our system has raised them to be this way through generations. The fault is in the system, and it will only get worse as each year goes by, unless major changes are made. People need to re-learn that they can be contributors to society, and handouts need to be eliminated over time through productive work programs.

As long as the haves continue to build walls around their neighborhoods, and cities divided at the railroad tracks this will never happen.

A brilliant book called the End of Workstated that 70% of the current jobs in the USA could technically be replaced today by automation. This number is increasing every year. He states that if the companies and the govt. continue to chase profits, and efficiency, these jobs will be lost and a huge percentage of the population will never be employable again. This 70% will only exist to serve the 30% in the service industry. If this were to happen, a country of complete anarchy would exist, and the 30% would live in highly secure compounds, or be forced to flee the country to their already owned island retreats.

Katrina was the light that comes on in the middle of the night in the pristine white house that looks so pretty by day, but when the light is turned on at night the hidden cockroaches scramble across the floors.

It has shown a side of America that most of the world has never seen, and many of the Americans have always turned a blind eye to.
 
that guy said:
Bib - You are a wise man. I would have duplicated some of what you said had I not read your post first.

Many people are playing the blame game now. Don't blame. Do. When 9/11 happened, Rudi G didn't wait for the governer or President to step up. He immediately started to direct the efforts to save as many lives as possible. It was HIS city, not the governer's city, not the president's city. It was days of the NO Mayor whining and complaining about nobody doing anything to help his city out. There should have been a plan in place years ago. Even the mayor didn't evacuate and got stuck.

People are criticising Bush for cutting funding for the Levee Reconstruction efforts, thus causing the flooding. Last year, he did cut the budget from $21B to about $4B if I remember correctly. Had the full amount been given, the project would be completed in 2015, which would have done absolutely nothing to help this situation.

As for the Feds stepping in to take control, Bush has asked twice to do that. The governer of LA has denied both requests, not wanting the Feds to be in control of "her state".

So many people can point fingers. Yes, it is a terrible situation. Many people are suffering and dying when they don't have to be. However, there are military personnel going door to door right now throughout all of NO literally begging people to leave their houses that are flooded and filled with sewage and god knows what else. The can not force people to leave and many people WANT to stay. How much more effort is required now to go and beg people to leave a situation not fit for humans?

I'm not saying that the Federal Government couldn't have done something differently, but other than being a tyrant, Bush did what he could. FEMA dropped the ball without a doubt.

I can't wrap my head around everything going on with this. I just hope people stop blaming and start acting. It's sad that anyone would start playing partisan politics when American lives are still in the balance.

Sorry. I'll step off of the soap box now.

Well, the problems really arise when the federal government doesn't do what it says it is going to. There was no immediate response to the devestation. It's in the Department of homeland security's plan afterall. The federal government would replace the state and local government efforts by providing immediate assistance to the areas. The local areas asked for help in response to the catastrophe. Was this what anyone saw?

It's the people's job to hold the government accountable for it's JOB. When the government doesn't do it's job people need to figure out what went wrong and how to correct it, but most importantly make sure it doesn't happen again. The best way to do this is to hold people accountable for their jobs therefore if they do not do their job then they should either be reprimanded or fired. All we've seen from this administration is deflection, denial, and lies. How much spin can you put on the handling of the situation in New Orleans? The national guard DID what they were supposed to do and can be commended as can other groups helping the relief, BUT the people that are supposedly in charge of deploying the Guard and those in charge of Emergencies on such a level as Katrina we can hardly afford to let this go quietly lest we want to see something similar again. There is plenty to discuss AFTER the fact, but like many have pointed out the blame is not soley on the President or the administration, however if our LEADER doesn't make certain he has the right people in the right places and that they are COMPenis EnlargementTENT then this is what can happen. No one can say the conditions of the levees were unknown. It was reported on. I only found out from a report on the radio the day the storm hit. As another poster pointed out it was in the paper and had been an issue there for many years.

There is a difference between just placing blame and realizing that some people made huge mistakes that could have been avoided and should have been avoided. Do you want those same people in charge in a similar situation? When the administration fails to point out (so conveniently) that the Department of Homeland Security's National Response Plan says it is to provide immediate assistance (not just supplemental assistance either) to an area in need, yet fails to do so shouldn't we consider the federal government to be slightly INCOMPenis EnlargementTENT? I know I'm certain the majority of this administration is no longer if it ever was suitable for their jobs.

All you hear now from the local groups that were trying to ask for help from the federal level was that they were told the cavalry was coming. The groups asked for help and it wasn't met immediately. Ontop of all that there was knowledge of the levee conditions so how could the response be that delayed? The point in which we can only discuss at a constructive level is that of response. The preparedness was not there and we know there is fault somewhere on many levels, but the response on the federal level was not there as written and planned out by the DHS.

http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf#page=61
 
You know, tragic as these events may have been, I am not impressed with the New Orleans community when it's all said and done.

As I think I mentioned somewhere, we had some bad flooding here in the Pittsburgh area in September of 2004. It was very minor compared to New Orleans, but it was declared a federal disaster. I remember the Millvale community having the entire business district flooded by several feet of water. There was ONE instance of looting in the Pittsburgh area and the woman was caught on a surveillance tape and was shamed by the entire community. As for New Orleans, nobody is going to look at someone taking food and necessary supplies in that way. There has probably been a good bit of that going on, but let's not kid ourselves and say that people were not stealing non-essential items as well.

Then you have the instances of rapes and murders in the shelter relief areas that were set up. I find it absolutely mind boggling. I cannot imagine the people in the communities around here behaving like such lawless animals, taking advantage in the worst way of the worst possible situation. And the instances of shooting at rescue workers in beyond understanding. Some of the behavior we saw represents the worst of the worst. Of course, it was obviously a small minority of people acting in such manners, but I cannot imagine Pittsburghers behaving as such. It really reflects poorly on the community.

New Orleans does have a very high crime rate. In fact, New Orleans kinda almost prides itself on being a "sin city" so to speak. They celebrate their partying and lawlessness at Mardi Gras, which is to be expected to a degree. However, I have heard stories about police driving through the streets during the parties while drinking beer in their patrol cars and other stories of like lawlessness. From what I understand, it is somewhat of a cultural thing that goes beyond just Mardi Gras. New Orleans pays its police officers starting salaries that are lower than any other major city, if I'm not mistaken, and police corruption is a terrible problem. On top of those social problems, where talking about a city largely built below sea level between a delta and a large lake and the city seemed to pride itself on having so much develop on what would otherwise be a swamp. Well, when you encounter a swamp in nature, it's swampland for a reason.

You know, it ain't Uncle Sam's duty to keep you from letting your community degenerate into a shithole. Now, I've never been there and I'm just going on numerous things I've heard. Perhaps "shithole" is too strong of a term, but I said it to prove a point. What I have seen and heard to much of is a prevailing attitude of laziness and whining. For years and years, New Orleans has waited for federal funding of the levee projects. Well, maybe they should have offered to fund a greater percentage of it themselves and they would have been more likely to sell that one in Washington. Instead, they have been waiting for the feds to fund it all. I wasn't the one that built in city in a swamp that is prime for flooding. We're talking about a multi-year project, so New Orleans should have been able to fund a large percentage of it themselves. They get an enormous amount of money flowing in from gambling revenues, so do what it takes. Hell, they could have been like the gambling mecca of the U.S., being Nevada, and legalized brothels if they needed additional tax revenues. No one could argue they were highly concerned about the moral image aspect and the servicemen in the Gulf would have generated millions upon millions of dollars of tax revenue. Point is, if the priority is that high, and it's the people that live there that are going to understand the potential danger, not congressmen from all over the country, you need to be proactive and do what it takes.

I don't know. I do hope to visit the city someday when things get straightened out, as friends have told me it's a nice place to visit. I am just not impressed with the vision and leadership of the community and the cultural values that have been instilled. When I have seen people interviewed from Biloxi and other communities, I have not seen the complaining and defeatist mentality.
 
Iwant8,

>All you hear now from the local groups that were trying to ask for help from the federal level was that they were told the cavalry was coming. The groups asked for help and it wasn't met immediately. Ontop of all that there was knowledge of the levee conditions so how could the response be that delayed? The point in which we can only discuss at a constructive level is that of response. The preparedness was not there and we know there is fault somewhere on many levels, but the response on the federal level was not there as written and planned out by the DHS.<

You do not get it. You obviously do not understand the relationship between the federal government and the individual states. In almost every case, the states trump the federal government, in all matters. The federal government CANNOT go into a state and do as you suggest. It is unconstitutional. Please do the research on exactly what happened. Bush asked the governor to let the feds have full rein, and she refused.

Bush declared the area a disaster area two days before the storm hit, so that the governor could have any federal resources she needed, and pre-position them. And FEMA and the Red Cross did pre-position all supplies needed. Any governor already has full control over their own National Guard. She could do as she wished with over 7000 troopes. I think she positioned 300. She also had the opportunity to call on National Guard from other states. The feds cannot do that.

FEMA is not a first responder organization. I think they only have about 1000 total employees, and are meant to only organize and supply, and contract for clean-up. That's it. They work with the Salvation Army and Red Cross to distribute the supplies. In the case of New Orleans, all of these organizations were not let into the city, BY THE GOVERNOR, because they wanted to evacuate the city, and were afraid sending in relief would make this more difficult.

So the governor asked FEMA for buses for the evacuation, while 1500 New Orleans buses sat under water. It did take a while for FEMA to get the buses rolling, but I do not see how this could be much of their fault.

I challenge anyone to honestly look at the effort of the federal government, what they did, what they were allowed to do, what they legally can do, and then criticize the effort. I would like to hear the exact faults of the feds. Many people are saying the feds failed, but then cannot come up with their exact sins. Let's hear them. The fact is, that guy Brown has been a scapegoat. He did everything he was allowed to do.

The mayor killed people by not using city buses to get the poor out of town. Most if not all could have been removd. The governor killed people by not allowing relief into the city. The feds could do nothing to stop the lunacy. The constitution prevents it.

Bigger
 
BTW,

There is no DHS plans, other than general plans. Each state, city, community comes up with their own plans. NOT the feds. How are the feds supposed to know or understand the needs of each community?

The feds do provide assistance, and can do it fairly immediately. What they cannot do is provide intelligence and sense to the state and local leaders to allow them to do their jobs.

Bigger
 
Much of what Bib says is right. I am not a Bush cheerleader and I am not satisfied with how he has performed as a President, but this event was basically unprecedented as the feds could not begin to handle it without smaller government getting a jump on it. The degree to which it has been politicized is ridiculous.
 
I was watching Hannity and Colmes last Friday night. They had a conservative and a liberal debating who screwed up (which I still think should come AFTER everyone is safe and rebuilding begins), and I was completely stunned by what the liberal said. She stated that although the federal government can't legally take over control within a state, they should step in when the local and state government officials were overwhelmed and incompetent to handle a situation. When questioned on it, she again said that yes, the local and state officials in Louisiana were incompetent. Amazing.
 
Yes, the Feds will be guilty because big brother did not step in and make all things right immediately. Even though they did not have the power to do so.

Funny how Bush admits the Feds did not do enough, quickly enough. Smart guy. Because when Congress and independent commisions start looking at this, they are going to attempt to crush the Bush administration for OVERSTEPPING their bounds within an individual state. Inserting regular military and other acts without state authorization is not legal. But jumping on him for oversteping his bounds will be relieved by the fact that many more people would have died if he did not.

But then, the investigations are going to kill the governor and mayor. They were so imcompetent, the investigations will be something to see. I can still see in my minds eye, the governor warning against looting because the 82nd Airborne was on the way, and "they will be heavily armed, and know how to use those arms". How funny.

Bigger
 
Back
Top