Are there any Vegans or Vegetarians here?

[youknowme123321]

Veganism is not about trying to convince someone to change, in fact, vegans are against preaching about trying to make someone change.

Growing, killing and eating animals has been considered the new Holocaust. We can get in a really big debate about this here. Imagine you gave birth to a child that you have no say about for someone to take from you, slaughter and sell at McDonald's for .69 cents so a drunk person can pull up to late at night in the drive through and order to eat.

I think if something has a heart, a nervous system and a brain they should be treated equal. Do you realize if ignorant humans kill the bees and ants we are all dead? Humans are non factors on this planet, all we are doing is killing this planet. True hard facts.

i'm not against anyone being vegan no matter what there reasoning. whether it's based around personal morals or they just don't like meat... it's all good.

the animals you are talking about though are just as much of, if not more so then humans, non factors on this planet. most animals on this planet would eat us as well if we died in front of them. some would even eat us alive. nice of us not to do that to animals. also if that drunk person you mention happened to pass out in a pig pen they better hope they wake up when the pigs start biting them because they will eat a human in a second. humans got to where we are for a reason. there is a reason that when a human doesn't eat animal meat they are missing key nutrients. same thing when a human doesn't eat plants. we need balance.

Growing, killing and eating animals has been considered the new Holocaust. We can get in a really big debate about this here. Imagine you gave birth to a child that you have no say about for someone to take from you, slaughter and sell at McDonald's for .69 cents so a drunk person can pull up to late at night in the drive through and order to eat.

i agree that factory farming is disgusting in every way shape and form. that type of treatment of animals is disgusting and the poison they feed them that is then fed to us is no bueno. in the end i only care how it effects humans. now your imagine someones takes away your baby and someone eats it at a drive thru sentence is a poor example... it's judgmental b/c now anyone who eats meat who reads that... all you are saying to them is they are a disgusting human being b/c that is what they are doing. going to a drive thru and eating a whooper is nothing like stealing your neighbors child and feeding that baby to another human. humans get sick when they eat humans. cows get sick when they eat cows. humans get stronger when they eat meat. that is one of the reason we are where we are today evolutionary wise. now the factory farming meat is making millions unhealthy unfortunately. your example also shows how vegans are NOT against preaching about trying to make someone change. your example is telling someone to change b/c they are disgusting if they don't. you just left out those words. but to use such an example is exactly that. imagine saying that to someones face as they are eating a big mac. and lets pretend it is being said to someone who grew up in a low socioeconomic situation where the only education they had about nutrition was mcdonalds commercials. so they perceive that meal as very healthy and protein packed. you say to their face that sentence about taking a newborn baby and so on. as far as they see it and anyone else who is eating there you are saying that they are pretty much a kidnapping psychotic cannibal. when a vegan wants to use an example like you did, their "beef" should be with the government that allows animals to be treated so poorly which reduces the great health benefits that can come with a properly raised animal meat. also with the fact that many peoples only education in nutrition is through fast food commercials.

if you want to talk bees you need to bring up the pesticides, herbicides, and fungicides being used. although bees are usually brought in to pollinate before those plants get covered in those chemicals. everyone is ruining plant life on this planet unless you only eat out of a garden in your backyard. the wifi and various other radio signals and such that we are all using is hurting bees greatly. imagine just always hear a loud humming/buzzing/vibrating sound. that is interfering with bees natural gps. it's a huge topic. a very interesting topic. ants. ants are doing very well for now in comparison to many other things on this planet.

this planet is going to crumble with us here or not. with animals here or not.

plants are living things as well. smarter then many animals in certain ways. they adapt and change to survive in their environment as their environment changes. plants develop protective mechanisms to prevent animals, humans, and bugs from eating them. plants have wars with each other and try to push other plants out of areas. we are ruining the plant life of this planet just as much as our own lives by using computers as much as we do and having MILLIONS of cars on the road all over the planet.
check out the article below. the only true karma free vegan is someone who continually eats their own shit. that way they dont use resources from the planet and dont add to its waste. dont drive cars or use computers either otherwise anyone who is ruining this planet. those are cold hard facts as well. everything on this planet wants to dominate and take over the world. as it should. we are only here for a blip in time. we just need to make it quality balanced time
The dignity of plants

- - - Updated - - -

Obviously IMO ALL burgers are unhealthy. Why is 50% of the nation obese/overweight? Not McDonalds? Right? 5 Guys has awesome burgers, DLD and I use to eat there all the time. I just chose a different path in life. Do you think they buy more quality meat or more quality marketing? LOL

did you just read the china study or something? your referencing mcdonalds and the drive thru. thats another topic completely separate from veganism and eating meat. they can be linked into the same conversation but lets not talk about fast foods role in this. it's a different subject. and b/c of your lol after asking about quality meat or marketing the last time i had 5 guys was about 5 months ago. i have a fridge full of venison i dont eat fast food meat often.

and to consume dairy goes fully against the belief you established with your mcdonalds drive thru example. and to consume it for your own health benefit when your statements strongly lean towards preserving this planet that we are so voluntarily and knowingly destroying is very selfish. a vegan who has any voiced opinions on how bad it is to eat meat or hurt bees should be willing to sacrifice their health for the well being of the planet. now if that vegan doesn't voice those beliefs they can be selfish without me wondering why they make such strong statements in one direction but then choose the selfish path down the other direction. mild production is just as bad as all of mcdonalds "food" productions. i say food b/c mcdonalds actually just serves edible like products.

 

[Zambrodom3]

Veganism is not about trying to convince someone to change, in fact, vegans are against preaching about trying to make someone change.

Growing, killing and eating animals has been considered the new Holocaust. We can get in a really big debate about this here. Imagine you gave birth to a child that you have no say about for someone to take from you, slaughter and sell at McDonald's for .69 cents so a drunk person can pull up to late at night in the drive through and order to eat.
I think if something has a heart, a nervous system and a brain they should be treated equal. Do you realize if ignorant humans kill the bees and ants we are all dead? Humans are non factors on this planet, all we are doing is killing this planet. True hard facts.

Great post! Absolutely agree!

But Youknowme- I think there are some good stuff in what you wrote as well. Now there is nothing wrong with the example LIGHTNING gave (because THIS is what is ACATUALLY happening). I am a fan of Budism and their beliefs. And think about it that way- if you were to be reborned as any animal out there we,human eat, how would you feel having all your family SOLD and eaten to/by people. Animals are NO ONE's property to being sold is my belief and I stand behind LIGHTNING's example and I think he is right on this. As much as I agree with LIGHTNING though- I see that what you wrote is truth as well. Most people would say it is a big topic and that "we can argue a lot about this and get nowhere", but personally I think it is really interesting and would love to see more points of view!

 

[youknowme123321]

Great post! Absolutely agree!

But Youknowme- I think there are some good stuff in what you wrote as well. Now there is nothing wrong with the example LIGHTNING gave (because THIS is what is ACATUALLY happening). I am a fan of Budism and their beliefs. And think about it that way- if you were to be reborned as any animal out there we,human eat, how would you feel having all your family SOLD and eaten to/by people. Animals are NO ONE's property to being sold is my belief and I stand behind LIGHTNING's example and I think he is right on this. As much as I agree with LIGHTNING though- I see that what you wrote is truth as well. Most people would say it is a big topic and that "we can argue a lot about this and get nowhere", but personally I think it is really interesting and would love to see more points of view!

i dont like to think of it as an argument...just a discussion with varying opinions. taking a cow from a cow is nothing like taking a a human infant from it's mother. that cow will be eating grass an hour later not thinking about it. if you there was a baby cow and it's cow mom in front of you and next to it were a human mother and her baby. now 2 people come over and one steal the baby cow and the other steals the human baby. the mom cow will just sit there and do nothing. you and the human mom though will both go after the person stealing the human baby. the baby cow holds no weight next to a humans life. no if instead of cows it were bears then the momma bear would not let its cub be taken. but the important thing to note is the mom bear will eat you. or it may just kill you and let its cubs eat you. that is why humans are non factors as lightning puts it. though i wouldnt be a non factor b/c i would happily kill the bears to proctect/feed myself. it's the circle of life. in however long a period of time we humans are on this planet we should use it to its fullest potential for our benefit. now that doesn't mean destroy it and kill animals to extinction. but it means to put my health first. and i am much healthier with meat. as most people are.

again, i dont agree with animal cruelty just like i dont agree with human cruelty. i believe in an eye for 2 eyes. the people who work and own factory farms i'd support ANY punishment that was brought upon them. if someone kicked a cat i would break both their legs with great pleasure. i also greatly appreciate the animals that i eat. i am forever thankful that for whatever reason this "universe" made it so that I and the human race before me was able to thrive on both animal and plant foods.

 

[Zambrodom3]

In logic and philosophy, an argument is an attempt to persuade someone of something, by giving reasons for accepting a particular conclusion as evident.

I am sorry for misunderstanding, I thought you both tried to convince each other.

I disagree with what you said about the value of a cow's life compared to the value of a human's life. TO ME (I am not saying I am "right", I am saying that my beliefs are it is the SOUL of the animal that makes it equal to us. Just as we are humans now, we might be cows our next life (that really depends on ones beliefs, but as I said- I like the Budhist beliefs). Would that make our lifes less precious than someone else's? Humans, animals (most of them!) are proven to have feelings. In the example you gave above- you said that a cow mother would not resist having her child taken eye before her eyes. This might be true, yes, but I think this would be only because a mother cow would not know why the baby is being taken away- whether it is to help it in some way or not. It is true that other animals are less inteligent than us (like the mother cow that has no idea why her baby is being taken (and I see no reason for a mother cow to know what is actually going on), but that does not mean they are worth less than us. The reason why the bear would react is because of its predator-survival instinct. It is normal to kill an animal to survive (if it has attacked you), but if you both stay peacefully and do no harm to each other- I see no reason why a human would want to attack the bear (since he can feed himself with plants as well). Also- if a bear kills someone precious to you- you would be sad and start hating on all bears. But if you kill a bear- you did nothing bad, did you? This kind of thinking is a bit unfair...

Plus- we should use our potential to its fullest..? We are using our potential pretty much now and take a good look where we are. We are nothing more than a society formed over our own greed. We follow a system that encourages our worst quality and "develop" destroying everything good and beautiful we have been given by our LORD! I know you said using our potential to its fullest does not mean killing and destroying, but this is what humans do! And as I see- this is the only thing we can actually do....

With your last paragraph- I absolutely agree! This is not a debate, nor argument (yes, you are right) as none of us tries to convince the other of some of anything. This is just a clash of different beliefs.

 

[smerc]

Confused on this one.

Was just stating that if the crab can grow back a limb then maybe there is some chemical/gene response that can be used in PE (to grow things bigger).
I know it's not possible since it's more than likely a gene instruction/expression that probably can't be transitioned into humans. Maybe someone can put on their lab coat and go to work in finding it. :blush:

 

[youknowme123321]

In logic and philosophy, an argument is an attempt to persuade someone of something, by giving reasons for accepting a particular conclusion as evident.

I am sorry for misunderstanding, I thought you both tried to convince each other.

I disagree with what you said about the value of a cow's life compared to the value of a human's life. TO ME (I am not saying I am "right", I am saying that my beliefs are it is the SOUL of the animal that makes it equal to us. Just as we are humans now, we might be cows our next life (that really depends on ones beliefs, but as I said- I like the Budhist beliefs). Would that make our lifes less precious than someone else's? Humans, animals (most of them!) are proven to have feelings. In the example you gave above- you said that a cow mother would not resist having her child taken eye before her eyes. This might be true, yes, but I think this would be only because a mother cow would not know why the baby is being taken away- whether it is to help it in some way or not. It is true that other animals are less inteligent than us (like the mother cow that has no idea why her baby is being taken (and I see no reason for a mother cow to know what is actually going on), but that does not mean they are worth less than us. The reason why the bear would react is because of its predator-survival instinct. It is normal to kill an animal to survive (if it has attacked you), but if you both stay peacefully and do no harm to each other- I see no reason why a human would want to attack the bear (since he can feed himself with plants as well). Also- if a bear kills someone precious to you- you would be sad and start hating on all bears. But if you kill a bear- you did nothing bad, did you? This kind of thinking is a bit unfair...

Plus- we should use our potential to its fullest..? We are using our potential pretty much now and take a good look where we are. We are nothing more than a society formed over our own greed. We follow a system that encourages our worst quality and "develop" destroying everything good and beautiful we have been given by our LORD! I know you said using our potential to its fullest does not mean killing and destroying, but this is what humans do! And as I see- this is the only thing we can actually do....

With your last paragraph- I absolutely agree! This is not a debate, nor argument (yes, you are right) as none of us tries to convince the other of some of anything. This is just a clash of different beliefs.

i try to stay away from beliefs. religion, some ideologies and some spirituality bother me. the fact that someone came up with some idea that we may have another life as a random animal is one of those things that bothers me. just b/c there is no way to know if it is true so it is nothing more to me then just a pondering thought. i can't base any of my values off that. and if a person comes back as a cow it is their purpose to have come back as that cow just to provide food and nutritional benefit to a group of people because without animal meat we would not have become what we are today. the cow mother lacks survival instincts making it a perfect meal source. cows only exist b/c we let them. hell, there are plants that have stronger survival and adaptability then cows lol. if we disappeared form the earth coyotes and various other animals would have a party with those cows. they'd eat like kings until they ate them to extinction. i dont believe animals are worth less then us. just because i eat them does not make them less of anything. it makes them an amazing part of this cycle of life i am in. they should be treated well b/c of what they provide to us. a bear doesn't only kill b/c it was attacked. a bear will eat you b/c it is hungry just like i will eat the bear b/c i am hungry. or a bear will kill you just b/c you got to close to its cubs and it thinks you are threat. i won't do that to you. if a bear kills a human that human made a big mistake. an animal who kills a human is just an animal. it is doing what animals do, it's not bad. yes, i would be very sad if a bear ate my mother but that is a different subject.would i kill that bear though, hell yeah. and then i wouldn't even eat him b/c it would make me sadder.
our world is great. sure everything cant be perfect but we will be long gone before we can do to this planet what has happened MANY times before we were ever here. but i am living a great life. greed spawns greatness. now that does not mean everyone should be greedy and harmful to others.
i also dont believe in a lord b/c that is just something that was made up.

mostly i'm not speaking based on belief. it isn't a belief to say that if a person doesn't eat meat they will miss out on certain nutritional benefits that they can't receive from a plant based diet. that is why lightning consumes dairy. i'd personally prefer a cow be killed for meat production then live a life of torture to produce dairy products for us. i also don't think people should eat meat just b/c of its health benefits when it comes from a high quality source. eat what you want. nobody should support factory farming whether it be for animal or plant production. but just like the mom cow doesn't know you are stealing her baby many people don't know by purchasing certain foods and brands they are supporting a bad thing. it is much easier to get high quality meat from animals who have lived good lives then it is to get the equivalent in a dairy product. it is not a belief that an animals life is not equal to a humans life. only a fool would choose to save an animal life over a human life. unless that human is horrible and rapes, murders or something like that. but an animals life can be just as important to planet. it is a good thing we have had animals to help us become this advanced.

and if anyone believes the killing of animals is wrong reads this and you have anything leather in your life like a pair of shoes, a couch, car seats... they need to be smacked in the face.i don't mind a smack in the face for myself if i am stupid like that when it comes to a different subject. a person who believes in animal rights for the many reasons you mentioned should also feel that way about plant life. i gave many examples for the don't eat plants debate as well. a person cant be karma free unless they eat their own shit constantly.

a related topic.

some people do better on plant or meat diets better then others b/c of their ancestry. tell an eskimo that eating animals is wrong and if they believe you they will get extremely sick on only eating plants. the same goes for someone from another cultural background who mainly only eats plants.

eat whatever you want. but just support high quality production of that food source. not factory farming of animals or plants.

and i know that even though i say something may not be a belief to me and i see it as fact, another person may see it as a belief for me and not fact.

 

[youknowme123321]

Was just stating that if the crab can grow back a limb then maybe there is some chemical/gene response that can be used in PE (to grow things bigger).
I know it's not possible since it's more than likely a gene instruction/expression that probably can't be transitioned into humans. Maybe someone can put on their lab coat and go to work in finding it. :blush:

i know regeneration of limbs have been studied to some extent. must not be getting far with it though

 

[youknowme123321]

enjoying the conversation zam. it's nice to talk with people who don't get all sensitive or bent out of shape when someone has a different point of view. you rock

 

[Zambrodom3]

Yes, I agree that it is pretty dangerous for people to base all their beliefs on something they can not be sure of (the reincarnations), but I believe this way of thinking (even if wrong) makes us all better people- it makes us treat animals as equal (which I find really good, as I believe they are JUST like us- have feelings and are logical, it is just that they are not as "inteligent" as we are). So you are right, but I chose to believe in this, because it makes me a better person (now in the center of EVERYTHING we discuss is the DEFINITION of the words we say. "Better" might mean something to you and something completely different for me. But it makes me better- making me feel like a good person- a joyful feeling). This is why I choose to believe in that. Now I can not say I am right- since I have NO proof of anything, this is just the reasoning behind my beliefs.

I see your point and I absolutely agree- it is not only humans that eat living beings- we can be eaten as well, this is why we can't say that people are the "bad guys" in this movie. But think about it that way- is not it because of our superior intellect that we should end this cycle of killing. Humans are the leading force (and have been the leading force ever since we started using our brains to the level where we started inventing things), we are not directly threatened by anything (we are threatened, but I would not say directly (as the definition of directly is to be constanly afraid of being attacked throughout the whole day/night)), we are living "peacefully" in our own society not being threatened like we were before (back when we lived in caves). We have no reason to kill animals to just survive an attack (really depends on where you are of course, but I am talking about the majority of us- the ones that are not living in the Ammazon, Africa or wherever). The only reason we have to kill is just to feed ourselves (unlike before where we have been attacked and had to fight to save our lives) (and for economic reasons, but let's just keep ourselves away from that aspect as we are discussing the value of life when compared to our natural needs and personally I do not consider having leather clothes a NATURAL need). We can feed from plants as well. Yes, I know- you are going to say that we would then be unable to provide vital nutrients to our diet and therefore have our health put at risk. But whatever we can not get from feeding from plants- can't we get it as supplementation? It is now that we have mineral, vitamin, protein etc. supplementation where we can provide what we lack. Take a look at this industry it is growing vastly.

I included the predator attacking someone close to you example to just show you that whenever a human gets killed by a bear- it is not the bear that should be considered the "bad guy", because we, people, do that to bears (all animals in general, but seems we are talking about bears now) all the time.


I will have to 100% disagree with what you said about the world. "our world is great. sure everything cant be perfect but we will be long gone before we can do to this planet what has happened MANY times before we were ever here. but i am living a great life. greed spawns greatness. now that does not mean everyone should be greedy and harmful to others." Take a good look at the world you are living in. You have people being killed, threatened, mother nature being slowly but surely destroyed, you have a world where the system we live in ecourages us to harvest greed. The one quality that can turn us against each other instead of all people moving forward to a better furute. I simply can not understand how can someone praise that quality of ours that only leads to our stagnation as species.


To what you say about nutrition- I already gave you an answer above, but please- answer me this- Would you like to have someone close to you killed by a bear (cause bears are what we mostly using as an example it seems rofl!) to just provide nutriets the bear would feel healthier with? The bear needs to eat human meat to provide certain nutrients (I am not saying that it is true- I am just using this as an illustration) so it can feel healthier (just like you say we should eat animals to just provide nutrients we need to feel healthier (even though I gave you an alternative to this above)), so then having a bear eating someone close to you would not be considered wrong, right? You would have no reason to be angry- the bear is just doing it so it can feel "healther". Sure, it can survive without killing the ones close to you, but you know, it's gonna feel "healthier".

"only a fool would choose to save an animal life over a human life." Please explain WHY? I want to hear 100% reasoning.


Now about what you said about plants- the difference between plants and animals is that plants are more of "individual". They do not suffer when you "kill" one of them. They are emotionless (and I just read a study online to make sure I am writing BS (though I might actually write complete BS since I do not believe I am "right", I always know that I could be wrong. Thinking that you are 100% right is foolish as it makes you narrow minded and stop you to see things outside of your beliefs (that can be actually more "truthful" than yours)). When you kill it- it does not feel any pain (just like us and animals (though, we are considered animals as well)). There is no relative that would feel "bad" about having someone close to "it" being killed.

"a person cant be karma free unless they eat their own shit constantly."- yea but 1st you have to eat something to produce shit. So if what you are 1st was a an animal- you would still not be "karma-free", cause you already ate an animal OR cause you keep on eating that animal over and over again (rofl! I had to laugh that off! ).

"but just support high quality production of that food source. not factory farming of animals or plants."- I absolutely have to agree!

"and i know that even though i say something may not be a belief to me and i see it as fact, another person may see it as a belief for me and not fact. "- yes I find this truthful as well.


"enjoying the conversation zam. it's nice to talk with people who don't get all sensitive or bent out of shape when someone has a different point of view. you rock "- Wow, thanks very much! Right back at you mate!

P.S- Damn it took me nearly an hour to just think of how to answer what you wrote above! I am unsure whether my reasoning and logic are good, but this is the way I see things. If they are not good- well then I should consider myself "dumb", shouldn't I? AHHAHAHAHAH!

 

[youknowme123321]

Yes, I agree that it is pretty dangerous for people to base all their beliefs on something they can not be sure of (the reincarnations), but I believe this way of thinking (even if wrong) makes us all better people- it makes us treat animals as equal (which I find really good, as I believe they are JUST like us- have feelings and are logical, it is just that they are not as "inteligent" as we are). So you are right, but I chose to believe in this, because it makes me a better person (now in the center of EVERYTHING we discuss is the DEFINITION of the words we say. "Better" might mean something to you and something completely different for me. But it makes me better- making me feel like a good person- a joyful feeling). This is why I choose to believe in that. Now I can not say I am right- since I have NO proof of anything, this is just the reasoning behind my beliefs.

yes if something makes us feel good and causes no harm to other humans it's a good way to go.

I see your point and I absolutely agree- it is not only humans that eat living beings- we can be eaten as well, this is why we can't say that people are the "bad guys" in this movie. But think about it that way- is not it because of our superior intellect that we should end this cycle of killing. Humans are the leading force (and have been the leading force ever since we started using our brains to the level where we started inventing things), we are not directly threatened by anything (we are threatened, but I would not say directly (as the definition of directly is to be constanly afraid of being attacked throughout the whole day/night)), we are living "peacefully" in our own society not being threatened like we were before (back when we lived in caves). We have no reason to kill animals to just survive an attack (really depends on where you are of course, but I am talking about the majority of us- the ones that are not living in the Ammazon, Africa or wherever). The only reason we have to kill is just to feed ourselves (unlike before where we have been attacked and had to fight to save our lives) (and for economic reasons, but let's just keep ourselves away from that aspect as we are discussing the value of life when compared to our natural needs and personally I do not consider having leather clothes a NATURAL need). We can feed from plants as well. Yes, I know- you are going to say that we would then be unable to provide vital nutrients to our diet and therefore have our health put at risk. But whatever we can not get from feeding from plants- can't we get it as supplementation? It is now that we have mineral, vitamin, protein etc. supplementation where we can provide what we lack. Take a look at this industry it is growing vastly.

supplements can be good but aren't great for completely replacing the nutrition that foods provide. that is b/c all of the nutrients in food work synergistically together in a way supplements have been proven not to be able to. it is an option though for someone who chooses not to eat something or can't get proper nutrition b/c of various possibilities such as disease, location, etc., etc..

Take a good look at the world you are living in. You have people being killed, threatened, mother nature being slowly but surely destroyed, you have a world where the system we live in ecourages us to harvest greed. The one quality that can turn us against each other instead of all people moving forward to a better furute. I simply can not understand how can someone praise that quality of ours that only leads to our stagnation as species.

The world I live in looks good. there are 6 billion people on this planet. I happen to be EXTREMELY RANDOMLY LUCKY to be born into the life i have lived and not homeless in india or growing up in the projects of NYC with horrible drug addict mom. There are many realities in this world. The bible talks about an apocalypse. Throughout human history millions have suffered an apocalypse of their own (jewish holocaust, armenian holocaust, rwandan genocide) while others were living without a care in the world. it sucks that everyone and everything can't live freely and flourish equally whether it be human, animal, or plant but it's not the way it is. I am ok with all the tragedy that happens on this earth from murder to starvation. If someone in my family is murdered next week, dies in a hurricane, or from a car crash i can't describe how it will make me feel but i probably wont change my lifes purpose to preventing murder, finding a way to change weather patterns, or making cars illegal. I use those 3 examples b/c there will always be bad people who will murder someone no matter what and it is a possibility in everyones life more so for some then others. there will always be randoms acts such as hurricanes, tornadoes, fires, etc., that will lead to death and destroy families. an asteroid could hit earth and kill all human life and the universe will move forward without a glitch because, to use Lightining's word's that i do agree with, we are non factors just like the bears, cows, and bees that have been mentioned.

saying "greed spawns greatness" does not mean i praise greed. not all greed is good but greed has lead to advancements. i cant come up with a great example right now but fully believe and know great things have come from selfishness and greed. bad hurtful things have as well. a doctor is working on a test to detect lung cancer very early. he has a family, wife and kids, but he spends the majority of his time working. his wife wants him home to spend more time with her and his kids but he is working on something that could save millions and he is only thinking of that and his own career goal. it works and he develops the test and it is a success. his family though is ruined and his wife divorced him and now he doesn't see his kids freely. his actions even though they had a greater good behind them were selfish and greedy. not a great example but just using it make somewhat of a point. so again i dont praise greed but i don't get all bunched up that it exists and can possibly lead to great things. and i know it can lead to bad things that hurt people.

I included the predator attacking someone close to you example to just show you that whenever a human gets killed by a bear- it is not the bear that should be considered the "bad guy", because we, people, do that to bears (all animals in general, but seems we are talking about bears now) all the time.

To what you say about nutrition- I already gave you an answer above, but please- answer me this- Would you like to have someone close to you killed by a bear (cause bears are what we mostly using as an example it seems rofl!) to just provide nutriets the bear would feel healthier with? The bear needs to eat human meat to provide certain nutrients (I am not saying that it is true- I am just using this as an illustration) so it can feel healthier (just like you say we should eat animals to just provide nutrients we need to feel healthier (even though I gave you an alternative to this above)), so then having a bear eating someone close to you would not be considered wrong, right? You would have no reason to be angry- the bear is just doing it so it can feel "healther". Sure, it can survive without killing the ones close to you, but you know, it's gonna feel "healthier".

i already answered this in my last post to you. i said, "i dont believe animals are worth less then us. just because i eat them does not make them less of anything. it makes them an amazing part of this cycle of life i am in. they should be treated well b/c of what they provide to us. a bear doesn't only kill b/c it was attacked. a bear will eat you b/c it is hungry just like i will eat the bear b/c i am hungry. or a bear will kill you just b/c you got to close to its cubs and it thinks you are threat. i won't do that to you. if a bear kills a human that human made a big mistake. an animal who kills a human is just an animal. it is doing what animals do, it's not bad. yes, i would be very sad if a bear ate my mother but that is a different subject.would i kill that bear though, hell yeah. and then i wouldn't even eat him b/c it would make me sadder."

i am ok with a bear eating a human. it is a very unfortunate sad event when that happens and it would be even more so for me if it was a relative. but that is what animals like bears do. it needs to survive and that in end is all that matters for animals and humans. If you get eaten by a bear zam, very sad loss for [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words] and the people you know, but since you were in a situation that a bear could eat you i would not consider that bear bad. i would think either you are unlucky or stupid or both of those things lol. please dont get eaten by a bear zam. but if you do i will eat that bear in your honor. even if you'd rather me not lol. the video of me eating the bear will be added to [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words] as well to commemorate and forever remember you.

"only a fool would choose to save an animal life over a human life." Please explain WHY? I want to hear 100% reasoning.

doesn't that sentence sum itself up pretty easily? this scenario wont ever happen but here it is to get a point across. if a person were in a situation where they were told to pick either saving the life of an animal or human...and this animal and human are both awesome good quality beings...and that person chose to save the life of the animal i would be perfectly fine with that person being removed from the planet. if a person is that type of person and has that type of personality the earth would be better off without them i believe. I love and like my cat where more then you or anyone on [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words]. my cat brings me so much joy and love. but i would choose to save your life over the life of my cat. if a person would do otherwise i would think they are sick and unbelievably stupid.

Now about what you said about plants- the difference between plants and animals is that plants are more of "individual". They do not suffer when you "kill" one of them. They are emotionless (and I just read a study online to make sure I am writing BS (though I might actually write complete BS since I do not believe I am "right", I always know that I could be wrong. Thinking that you are 100% right is foolish as it makes you narrow minded and stop you to see things outside of your beliefs (that can be actually more "truthful" than yours)). When you kill it- it does not feel any pain (just like us and animals (though, we are considered animals as well)). There is no relative that would feel "bad" about having someone close to "it" being killed.

now we need a person who believes plants have as much value as you and Lightning do animals so they can use the same points you do for animals but for plants. that would be FUUUUUN and entertaining to read lol.

"a person cant be karma free unless they eat their own shit constantly."- yea but 1st you have to eat something to produce shit. So if what you are 1st was a an animal- you would still not be "karma-free", cause you already ate an animal OR cause you keep on eating that animal over and over again (rofl! I had to laugh that off! ).

well i just thought of a way to be karma free. just eat bear shit = karma free. hahaha

just because you ate something to produce that shit doesn't mean you can't be karma free. there is always forgiveness. i have done bad things in my life that weren't great for my karma (this only applies to a person who believes in karma) but with time and/or forgiveness that bad karma can disappear.

Wow, thanks very much! Right back at you mate!

again don't get eaten by a Bulgarian bear (the worst kind of bear!!! wait...are there bears in bulgaria? and are the worse then all other bears? i am assuming you are an expert on bulgarian bears) but if you do I won't think that bear is a bad bear

P.S- Damn it took me nearly an hour to just think of how to answer what you wrote above! I am unsure whether my reasoning and logic are good, but this is the way I see things. If they are not good- well then I should consider myself "dumb", shouldn't I? AHHAHAHAHAH!

i thought you were ignoring me!!! ya have we shared all our points? i hope so hahaha

 

[Zambrodom3]

Now the example you gave about greed, I really do not think it was a good one. This is copied from wikipedia and it is the complete definition of the word "greed":

Greed (Latin, avaritia), also known as avarice, cupidity, or covetousness, is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. It is applied to a markedly high desire for and pursuit of wealth, status, and power. (it is only a part of the info- the rest you can find and read following this link- Greed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

Now, as you can see yourself- greed is a pursuit of wealth, status and power. I believe the reasoning behind this man's actions was none of these (if the example you gave is inspired from real life)! I believe he wanted to help other people to fight cancer and therefore helping all of humanity walking along together to a better future. NOW, let me give you a 100% true story example- one of the reasons why I came to hate people in the first place (I had a strange childhood (I can NOT call it rough or hard, because there are people out there who literally have/had NOTHING, I would not be even close if I say it was hard!!!!!!!!!) that lead me to have a certain amount of hate to all of our kind. Girls especially- which is why I believe I SOMETIMES enjoy watching "rape roleplay" adult entertainment, but this gets a bit off topic) and this quality of ours even more!

- A bulgarian herb healer (we have special people here in Bulgaria (I am a bulgarian) that can cure illnesses with herbs and plants, they use NO pills and have NOTHING to do with medicine as people from other countries know it. The reason for us to have such people is that our country is REALLY RICH on herbs! Especially in the mountains where the climate is nearly perfect for optimal herb-plant growth) spent all his life searching for cure for cancer. He is in his 70-ties now and still counting. Ever since "cancer" became so epidemic- he started looking for a way to create an "antidote" for this "poison". It is before 4 years that he officially found the cure for cancer (and there are documented cases where he has cured several people). He wanted to put it on the market, so EVERYONE could have access to it and save probably millions of lives all over the world. BUT what ACTUALLY happened is that the Pharmacy mafia companies refused to put this product on the market. For this to have been done- the man wanted a million levs (which is about 650 000$) in exchange (because he spent ALL his life and work on finding the cure to save people's lives and this he believed was not because he wanted to gain wealth (fuck it- ONLY 650 000$ and the world would have known cure to cancer!!!!!! This money is NOTHING!!!!! (can not stress enough)) and he believed he deserved to be honored and rewarded for all the hard work he did over the years!), but the Pharmacy companies refused to buy this product (for 2 main reasons- 1- The industry makes A LOT of money selling pills that expand (not cure!!!) people's lives (ones that suffer cancer), this would be economically bad for them, why should they care about people's lives all over the world- what actually matters is that they need to make more money! AND 2- because they wanted the formula to be given to them for FREE (for the ridiculous price of 1000 leva, which is around 650$) and no more!). This man has documented his clients and they were recalled in the show and it was proven they suffered cancer and after his treatment (whatever it was) they no longer suffered it! This is ABSOLUTELY 100% inspired from real life and I can tell this to you for sure!!!! So is greed actually good?

"i am ok with a bear eating a human. it is a very unfortunate sad event when that happens and it would be even more so for me if it was a relative. but that is what animals like bears do. it needs to survive and that in end is all that matters for animals and humans. If you get eaten by a bear zam, very sad loss for [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words] and the people you know, but since you were in a situation that a bear could eat you i would not consider that bear bad. i would think either you are unlucky or stupid or both of those things lol. please dont get eaten by a bear zam. but if you do i will eat that bear in your honor. even if you'd rather me not lol. the video of me eating the bear will be added to [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words] as well to commemorate and forever remember you."- This REALLY put a smile on my face! Feels really good seeing someone saying such nice things about me, warms my hear, thank you VERY much for this my brother! . Well it seems that we have come to an agreement here- when an animal kills another animal- emotions follow. Just the way I would be angry (sad!!!) if a bear ate someone close to me- the same way a mother bear would be angry (sad!!!) if I ate her child. My point on this was to just show you that animals- just like us- can suffer a loss of someone close to them and just the same way we, people consider killing animals is normal, then thinking animals killing people should be considered normal as well. That is- if I had someone close to me eaten by a bear I might be in my right to be all angry, because this "cycle" of killing is something I do not approve.

"doesn't that sentence sum itself up pretty easily? this scenario wont ever happen but here it is to get a point across. if a person were in a situation where they were told to pick either saving the life of an animal or human...and this animal and human are both awesome good quality beings...and that person chose to save the life of the animal i would be perfectly fine with that person being removed from the planet. if a person is that type of person and has that type of personality the earth would be better off without them i believe. I love and like my cat where more then you or anyone on [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words]. my cat brings me so much joy and love. but i would choose to save your life over the life of my cat. if a person would do otherwise i would think they are sick and unbelievably stupid." I see your point clearly and I consider this normal, but it did not actually give an absolute logical-based proof on why the animal's life is worth less.

"now we need a person who believes plants have as much value as you and Lightning do animals so they can use the same points you do for animals but for plants. that would be FUUUUUN and entertaining to read lol." HAHAHAHHAHAHAHH!!!!!! LIGHTNING got lost though, this was a discussion between the two of you originally, I came in and he suddenly disappeared rofl!

"again don't get eaten by a Bulgarian bear (the worst kind of bear!!! wait...are there bears in bulgaria? and are the worse then all other bears? i am assuming you are an expert on bulgarian bears) but if you do I won't think that bear is a bad bear " AHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAH!!!!! I am NOT an expert on bears, bear are my favorite animals though... rofl!


"i thought you were ignoring me!!! ya have we shared all our points? i hope so hahaha " NOOOO!!!!!!!! rofl!


I think we are having a really good discussion and I can tell you that I can NOT classify any of the things you wrote above as UNTRUE (EXCEPT FOR THE GREED THING!!!!!).

 

[Zambrodom3]

WOW! Just take a look at that page and you can see it is ALL covered of our writings! Good job so far, I think we are really having a good discussion!

 

[youknowme123321]

Now the example you gave about greed, I really do not think it was a good one. This is copied from wikipedia and it is the complete definition of the word "greed":

Greed (Latin, avaritia), also known as avarice, cupidity, or covetousness, is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. It is applied to a markedly high desire for and pursuit of wealth, status, and power. (it is only a part of the info- the rest you can find and read following this link- Greed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

Now, as you can see yourself- greed is a pursuit of wealth, status and power. I believe the reasoning behind this man's actions was none of these (if the example you gave is inspired from real life)! I believe he wanted to help other people to fight cancer and therefore helping all of humanity walking along together to a better future. NOW, let me give you a 100% true story example- one of the reasons why I came to hate people in the first place (I had a strange childhood (I can NOT call it rough or hard, because there are people out there who literally have/had NOTHING, I would not be even close if I say it was hard!!!!!!!!!) that lead me to have a certain amount of hate to all of our kind. Girls especially- which is why I believe I SOMETIMES enjoy watching "rape roleplay" adult entertainment, but this gets a bit off topic) and this quality of ours even more!

i don't believe greed falls into this narrow definition. when i think of greed it can be so much more then just the pursuit of wealth, power, and status. what do you think that doctors family thought of his endeavors? sure he came up with something that would benefit many and they know that is a great thing but they didn't have a present husband/father and what if his test didnt work out? he used all his time for his own goals, neglected his family and it failed. whether it succeeded or failed his family was knowingly left on the back burner so he could work towards his goal. that, i believe, is an act of greediness/selfishness.

- A bulgarian herb healer (we have special people here in Bulgaria (I am a bulgarian) that can cure illnesses with herbs and plants, they use NO pills and have NOTHING to do with medicine as people from other countries know it. The reason for us to have such people is that our country is REALLY RICH on herbs! Especially in the mountains where the climate is nearly perfect for optimal herb-plant growth) spent all his life searching for cure for cancer. He is in his 70-ties now and still counting. Ever since "cancer" became so epidemic- he started looking for a way to create an "antidote" for this "poison". It is before 4 years that he officially found the cure for cancer (and there are documented cases where he has cured several people). He wanted to put it on the market, so EVERYONE could have access to it and save probably millions of lives all over the world. BUT what ACTUALLY happened is that the Pharmacy mafia companies refused to put this product on the market. For this to have been done- the man wanted a million levs (which is about 650 000$) in exchange (because he spent ALL his life and work on finding the cure to save people's lives and this he believed was not because he wanted to gain wealth (fuck it- ONLY 650 000$ and the world would have known cure to cancer!!!!!! This money is NOTHING!!!!! (can not stress enough)) and he believed he deserved to be honored and rewarded for all the hard work he did over the years!), but the Pharmacy companies refused to buy this product (for 2 main reasons- 1- The industry makes A LOT of money selling pills that expand (not cure!!!) people's lives (ones that suffer cancer), this would be economically bad for them, why should they care about people's lives all over the world- what actually matters is that they need to make more money! AND 2- because they wanted the formula to be given to them for FREE (for the ridiculous price of 1000 leva, which is around 650$) and no more!). This man has documented his clients and they were recalled in the show and it was proven they suffered cancer and after his treatment (whatever it was) they no longer suffered it! This is ABSOLUTELY 100% inspired from real life and I can tell this to you for sure!!!! So is greed actually good?

in that example greed isn't good. people would argue though how can that man not share the cure for cancer b/c the pharm companies dont want to pay him more. some would agree with the man some wouldnt. i would. but some would think he is greedy. but as i believe my example shows, greed can bring about something great. he was greedy reaching for his goals and his family suffered but it ended up benefiting much more. so even though he might save millions his family ended and his family though he was greedy/selfish.

and you can't say you have a true story and not link me info to it.

"doesn't that sentence sum itself up pretty easily? this scenario wont ever happen but here it is to get a point across. if a person were in a situation where they were told to pick either saving the life of an animal or human...and this animal and human are both awesome good quality beings...and that person chose to save the life of the animal i would be perfectly fine with that person being removed from the planet. if a person is that type of person and has that type of personality the earth would be better off without them i believe. I love and like my cat where more then you or anyone on [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words]. my cat brings me so much joy and love. but i would choose to save your life over the life of my cat. if a person would do otherwise i would think they are sick and unbelievably stupid." I see your point clearly and I consider this normal, but it did not actually give an absolute logical-based proof on why the animal's life is worth less.

i've never said the life of an animal is worth less. i have said the opposite somewhere in our conversation. i think an animals life holds just as much value to this planet as a humans life. just b/c i will eat an animal does not mean it has less value. it could be argument for an animals greater value b/c it can help to breed more life by keeping me healthy. that wouldnt be a strong argument point if someone tried using it.

"now we need a person who believes plants have as much value as you and Lightning do animals so they can use the same points you do for animals but for plants. that would be FUUUUUN and entertaining to read lol." HAHAHAHHAHAHAHH!!!!!! LIGHTNING got lost though, this was a discussion between the two of you originally, I came in and he suddenly disappeared rofl!

he did leave. guess he has been busy working with pop ups. but i still want that plant person to come say what you're saying to me and say it to you about plants.

"again don't get eaten by a Bulgarian bear (the worst kind of bear!!! wait...are there bears in bulgaria? and are the worse then all other bears? i am assuming you are an expert on bulgarian bears) but if you do I won't think that bear is a bad bear " AHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAH!!!!! I am NOT an expert on bears, bear are my favorite animals though... rofl!

so are there bears in bulgaria?

I think we are having a really good discussion and I can tell you that I can NOT classify any of the things you wrote above as UNTRUE (EXCEPT FOR THE GREED THING!!!!!).

i believe greed is much more expansive of a topic then that narrow/closed wikipedia definition.

 

[Zambrodom3]

????????, ?????? ????????? ????? ???, ? ????? ???? ? ????? ????? ?? ??????????? - TVTV.bg
Българин, открил лекарство срещу рак, е първи гост в новия сезон на „Емигранти” | potv.bg
http://www.ekrana.info/nova-tv/byurokratsiyata-pobedi-lekarstvoto-za-r/
????? ????????? / VBOX7

The last one is a video of the interview of the man.

P.S-Damn the way it displays the links! rofl!
P.P.S- Yes, there are bears herein Bulgaria! rofl!

 

[youknowme123321]

oh and Zam...want to stop our long post on this subject lol??? i fully respect your beliefs as I am sure your know and i know you respect mine. we could do this forever lol.

i also think we have both gotten our points and beliefs across pretty well.

 

[youknowme123321]

????????, ?????? ????????? ????? ???, ? ????? ???? ? ????? ????? ?? ??????????? - TVTV.bg
Българин, открил лекарство срещу рак, е първи гост в новия сезон на „Емигранти” | potv.bg
http://www.ekrana.info/nova-tv/byurokratsiyata-pobedi-lekarstvoto-za-r/
????? ????????? / VBOX7

The last one is a video of the interview of the man.

P.S-Damn the way it displays the links! rofl!
P.P.S- Yes, there are bears herein Bulgaria! rofl!

and also damn!!!!! i can't read or understand any of that

is that homless man over the fire the guy? or is that guy selling garbage can fire pits??? lol jk. but since i cant understand or read any of it i am just using my imagination lol

 

[Zambrodom3]

oh and Zam...want to stop our long post on this subject lol??? i fully respect your beliefs as I am sure your know and i know you respect mine. we could do this forever lol.

i also think we have both gotten our points and beliefs across pretty well.

youknowme- as much I do not like to admit it- I am not a vegan, nor a vegetarian. What I wrote, write and preach seems not to be what I do. I have been thinking of becoming a vegetaarian, but THINKING is not acting. There is nothing to give up since it was not a "trying to convince" discussion, but I admit my defeat. The things I wrote- I do think them, but it is pretty insolent of me to continue writing things I am obviously not doing.

The only thing I can talk to you about is that greed has a definition and you can not change it. We all define things and categorize them as "good", "bad", "right" and "wrong". When i said I thought greed was bad- this narrow (as you call it) definition was exactly what I meant.

I do not think he was greedy at all as he found something that's worth billions and wanted to give it to the world for less than a million. I agree he could have given it away for free, but that would be pretty unfair to his work and disrespectful to his hard work.

So, as I told you that this narrow definition of the word "greed" is what I consider actualyl wrong and evil, I think we can both say that we share the same view- we respect animals, see their lifes as important as ours and we are thankful for being fed with their meat.

Yes, there are bears is Bulgaria (and I am unsure on this as it might have been my brain playing with me imagining things, because it was a moment of shock, but me and a guy I know were on a holiday in a villa on the mountains here in Bulgaria. We went into the woods so we could climb to the top, but all of a sudden he screamed- "A BEAR! RUN!" , I was like "What, where did you see it?" and he said "Take a look between the two trees over there, that's its head, just RUN!" I took a 2 second look into that and I it looked a bit like a bear, so I started running down to the villa as well. I don't know whether it was our brains playing with us (everyone refused to believe us as well), but 3-4 days after that (when we had already left)- a bear has come down right in front of the villa) but they are found in the mountain areas- far away from the big cities.

 

[Zambrodom3]

oh and Zam...want to stop our long post on this subject lol??? i fully respect your beliefs as I am sure your know and i know you respect mine. we could do this forever lol.

i also think we have both gotten our points and beliefs across pretty well.

and also damn!!!!! i can't read or understand any of that

is that homless man over the fire the guy? or is that guy selling garbage can fire pits??? lol jk. but since i cant understand or read any of it i am just using my imagination lol

HAHAHAHA.... come on man, not funny! rofl!!!! Well we- bulgarians are very poor, old people dress like that (because they grew up in society of socialism and communism and their beliefs are a bit different than ours, so is their taste). Come on man, don't be rude. rofl! I think it was good as well (not the best, but still....)

 

[youknowme123321]

HAHAHAHA.... come on man, not funny! rofl!!!! Well we- bulgarians are very poor, old people dress like that (because they grew up in society of socialism and communism and their beliefs are a bit different than ours, so is their taste). Come on man, don't be rude. rofl! I think it was good as well (not the best, but still....)

i just ordered my garbage can fire pit . ill be warm this winter

 

[Zambrodom3]

i just ordered my garbage can fire pit . ill be warm this winter

That's the way to go!!! But we, in Bulgaria use something really similar to this to keep our homes warm in the winter... (no kidding!).

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