Kal-el

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Is War Necessary?

by Harry Browne

January 16, 2004

I have managed to live on this planet for 70 years without ever striking another human being.

There have been a dozen or so times when someone wanted to fight me. I managed to talk my way out of a fight in most of those cases. In the few times I didn't succeed in avoiding a fight altogether, I managed to end the scuffle without hitting the other person and without suffering any noticeable damage to myself.

Granted, I've been fortunate. I grew up in a peaceful suburban area. Had I had the bad fortune to have been born in the inner city in a gang neighborhood, I might not have avoided violence so easily.

But that's an important point. Being fortunate in the circumstances of my birth and my growing-up, I didn't squander that good fortune by looking for trouble.

The U.S. by Birth

America was also fortunate in the circumstances of its birth.

After one apparently necessary fight to extricate itself from British rule, it found itself in the best neighborhood possible. It is bounded by two friendly countries and two enormous oceans. No need here to look for trouble.

And yet, ruled by American instead of British politicians, the United States has found itself embroiled in one street fight after another.

In fact, in the 20th century there were less than 20 years in which America was at peace with the world. What with World Wars, the Cold War, police actions, gunboat diplomacy in Latin America, overthrowing governments in Iran and other places, suppressing the Philippine rebellion, interfering with the Mexican revolution, firing missiles at Afghanistan and the Sudan, invading Panama and Grenada, bombing Libya, and on and on and on, Americans have lived with the tension of conflict and violence almost their entire lives.

And we live in a good neighborhood!

The Swiss by Birth

Contrast our circumstances with those of Switzerland.

The poor Swiss have the misfortune of living in the middle of one of the worst neighborhoods in the world. Centuries of imperial rivalries, ethnic hatreds, governments armed to the teeth and ready to go to war at the drop of the hat, and populations nursing grudges against each other — all these elements have kept Europe in turmoil for centuries.

Switzerland is like the inner-city family that hears gunfire outside its windows every night.

And yet Switzerland hasn't been involved in a single war for two centuries. The Swiss managed to avoid being sucked into the World Wars, the Cold War, or any of the other conflicts that have beset Europe.

The Swiss haven't been fortunate in their geographical circumstances. But they've dealt with those circumstances intelligently. It wasn't by the grace of dictators that they've avoided war; it has been a national policy to do so.

The Swiss have always made sure it was in the self-interest of warring nations to leave Switzerland out of their quarrels. They've devised ingenious defenses to demonstrate that, while Switzerland is not unconquerable, the cost of conquest would be intolerable to the conqueror. And they've made themselves an indispensable trading partner to any country that otherwise might see some profit in invading Switzerland.

It may seem that war is inevitable for many countries — such as the warring factions in the Balkans or some countries in Asia or Africa. But Switzerland has proven that it isn't inevitable for anyone — not even for a country as poorly situated as Switzerland is.

Why then is America continually at war over one thing or another?

The "Last Resort"

Whenever the U.S. goes to war somewhere, the politicians tell us that diplomacy was tried and failed — and that war was the very, very, very last resort.

But the truth is that the politicians didn't try much at all to avoid war. And the diplomacy was bound to fail, because it involved our politicians making insensitive demands on a foreign country — demands we had no authority to make, demands that were known in advance to be unacceptable to the foreigners.

In the few cases that America has been attacked, it's been because our politicians were trying to dictate to other countries — countries that represented no threat to us at all. The foreigners attacked either to try to gain an advantage against the stronger U.S. when our government had made war seem inevitable (as at Pearl Harbor), or because attacking seemed the only way to strike back at a country that was throwing its weight around in other people's business (as in 9/11).

Our Neighborhood

How easy it would have been for Americans to have lived the past two centuries in peace. We have never been attacked by a country that hadn't first been bullied by our politicians.

Maybe others aren't so fortunately situated, but we are.

No one can seriously believe that terrorists have struck America because they hate our freedom, our democracy, or our prosperity. If that were true, they would have warmed up first by attacking Switzerland — an easier target.

And if someone asks how you would handle the terrorists without war, now that Pandora's Box has been opened, here's a simple answer:

I'm not certain what I'd do, but I know one thing for sure: With $2 trillion a year at my disposal, I could hire the best minds in the world to find a solution that didn't involve using the cave-man tactics of trying to beat people to death.

But no one in power is interested in finding alternatives to war. They arm to the teeth and then tell us we will obtain "peace through strength."

Well, America has been overwhelmingly strong for a century, and we're still waiting to see the peace. As Charles Beard put it, we've had "perpetual war for perpetual peace." Perhaps part of the problem is that we have an overwhelming national offense, but practically no national defense.

Is It Necessary?

I have never hit anyone, and not doing so has caused me no humiliation; nor has it made me a target for bullies. If America made peace the object, it need be neither humiliated nor picked upon.

Is war necessary?

For Americans, no.

Is war inevitable?

For Americans, yes — so long as we give politicians the power to meddle in our lives and in the lives of foreigners.

http://www.harrybrowne.org/articles/IsWarNecessary.htm
 
[P]okey[B]ear said:
do tacos taste good? It's all a matter of opinion

Yes, if we keep electing radical right-wing juggernauts to make them, war necessacity is a matter of opinion.
 
so what do you propose? We elect someone who won't stand up for america? By the way I am not for the war in Iraq I think it's the 2nd stupidest thing this country has ever done besides Vietnam
 
[P]okey[B]ear said:
so what do you propose? We elect someone who won't stand up for america? By the way I am not for the war in Iraq I think it's the 2nd stupidest thing this country has ever done besides Vietnam

Not by any stretch of the imagination. But by "standing up for America" we are obligated on carrying on the killings in this non-needed quagmire we call Iraq. I guess violating our Constitutional rights and Civil Liberties stands up for America? I guess killing 100,000 Iraqi civilians stands up for America? 1,900 dead US, and 10,000 handicapped stands up for America? If not for this"war on terrorism" Bush wouldn't have been elected a second time. Who the hell benefitted from 9/11? O yea, Bush.It didn't take a rocket scientist to see that politically this "war on terrorism" was paying off big time for W. He even went so far as to extend it to Iraq, no matter how absurdly unrelated Iraq was. He even repackaged his entire domestic agenda in the garb of "security."
 
That was an excellent well written post Kal-el. I agree 100%. I look at it the same way. If our American government would mind its own buisness and tend to its own problems here in our land, then we would have no need for war. Dont go looking for trouble should be the way they view things. Ild really like to here what you just wrote, read on national TV and see the reactions in Washington. It is just that simple.
 
Poorly reasoned piece. It is a simple matter to remain neutral when someone else is willing to protect your neutrality.

I notice he didn't mention Belgium, which also attempted to remain neutral in that little skirmish. I guess the fact they were conquered and invaded didn't suit his purposes.

But maybe he's right and we should follow the Swiss example of sacrificing our fellow man and becoming complicit in whatever atrocities they wish to commit so as to save our own necks. The Swiss sacrificed (and then stole) from the jews after all in an effort to maintain their neutrality. Of course had the allies lost even that temporary respite would have been lost to them.

So I guess the real lesson is that it sucks no one else is strong enough and inclined to maintain freedom in a world full of petty dictators and tyrants. Maybe the Canadians will be willing to pick up the slack if we decide to take a break.
 
Honestly...we blow there ass's up in the middle east..drop some bombs..and get the fuck out..
 
Theres a difference in being neutral and being ran over. Thats the point I was going for. Mind your own buisness, but if someone is threatening you or attacking your country then absolutly defend it until the matter is over with. Its hard to explain, I hope that made some sence.?
 
You can't just say war is good or war is bad in this situation. There's too much involved and too much at stake to just say killing is bad and especially if it's needless. This doesn't solve anything. I don't know even know where to begin with this question. War is wrong and is definitely not a long term solution. That is about as simple as it gets without getting into any kind of discussion. Military aggression would need to be addressed in this topic for starters. AHHHHHHHHHH! fuck it. There is not enough time in life to actually discuss to an end something that will in all probability be a part of our collective history, which is probably why there is war in the first place. We have shit that can rid ourselves of our fears and enemies quick enough before they get us therefore it's best to use our shit first. It's crazy only a few get to decide the fate of millions.
 
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Mase64 said:
exactly...So dropping bombs would be a great theory..

How exactly can this be good? I'm dying to hear this!

But anyway, that was a well thought-out piece. I agree with Harry Browne on a lot of things, and while I'm not an isolationist persay, Browne brings up a lot of good points. In the entire history of our nation since the American revolution, I think we've maybe been justified in going to war twice: WWII and Afghanistan. While Browne may very well be right about the causes of these attacks against Americans, once we were attacked we needed to fight. So out of 229 years, we maybe needed to be at war for 7 years, instead of the 200+ years have actually been at war.

To answer the question "Is war necessary": Rarely.
 
[P]okey[B]ear said:
do tacos taste good? It's all a matter of opinion

No fucking joke. Best thing you've come up with yet. ;) LMAO

I just picked one thing out of the post, b/c I'm not wasting all my time reading it. By now its clear what your message is and its all you talk about.

From the post: "No one can seriously believe that terrorists have struck America because they hate our freedom, our democracy, or our prosperity. If that were true, they would have warmed up first by attacking Switzerland — an easier target. "

Riiiight. Nuff said.

Maybe all you anti war guys could make your own threads and stick all your views/opinions and what not in it, instead of bombarding your political spam? :p
 
against_odds21 said:
Maybe all you anti war guys could make your own threads and stick all your views/opinions and what not in it, instead of bombarding your political spam? :p

What? Why would I do that? Where's the fun in doing that? If everyone holds your opinions, what kind of debate/conversation would that be?
 
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/

The shit that is war. Which T word is it that the leaders of our nation not want to spread? Terrorism or the truth? Torture is a t word too but it obviously isn't the answer here.

this is somewhat related to this thread in that torture is a part of the U.S.'s accepted methods when dealing with...detainees. Hydromaxm...something and then really something just shouldn't sit right with the public there...

This war...was it necessary? If you can ask several years after the war while it is still being fought...Fighting fire with fire...bring em on...smoke em out...whatever possessed this nation back in 03 I'll never know, but apparently a few war slogans, lies, and shameless propaganda had something to do with it.
 
Switzerland has avoided conflict because they are the centre of the "world order" and was created specifically for the purpose of controlling world money.
----So the conspiracy theory tells us-------
 
iwant8inches said:
whatever possessed this nation back in 03 I'll never know, but apparently a few war slogans, lies, and shameless propaganda had something to do with it.

That, and immediately after 9/11 America felt vulnerable, and Bush totally took advantage of this. He exploited the "war" to justify his entire agenda, from rolling back environmental protections,and trampling our civil liberties to handing out tax cuts to his fat-cat backers. I think that's the first time in US history when during wartime, taxes are lowered, usually they're raised to pay for wars. For Bush's political benefit, this bloodshed is billed to future generations.
 
Kal-el said:
That, and immediately after 9/11 America felt vulnerable, and Bush totally took advantage of this. He exploited the "war" to justify his entire agenda, from rolling back environmental protections,and trampling our civil liberties to handing out tax cuts to his fat-cat backers. I think that's the first time in US history when during wartime, taxes are lowered, usually they're raised to pay for wars. For Bush's political benefit, this bloodshed is billed to future generations.


And what's more is who will foot the bills he's helped ring up even today because we know the working poor and middle class will pay for it even moreso due to the gouging of social programs funding. The lower and middle class majorily makeup the military fighting in Iraq and they'll come home if they are lucky to the economic burdens that have been shifted even more heavily on the middle and lower class. The military men and women here deserve better and most of them are modest and humble enough to be taken advantage of by the very people that sent them to Iraq. Vets continually get left behind. The older, poorer, and weaker you are in this country the less it seems people want to help you. I mean yeah Republicans are mainly guilty of such social fucking, but the Dems sit there while it happens. (although what it's been 11 years since the Dems have had much power to do anything concerning those matters..still no excuse in my book) We're seeing plenty attempts at turning back the clock whether its giving corporations more leverage over employees or communities (just like big steel, oil or any old factory back when) to unions taking massive hits...what's the percentage of union workers right now?...to sending young people to die in the name of an ideology and profiteering....It's either we've come a long way as a country to have all this still going on or we haven't taken as many necessary steps as a society to truly progress. Complacent societies that are more or less ruled than governed tend not to stay complacent too long. We haven't seen the kind of infrastructure built that would facilitate the kind of free reign that these corporatists and war monguering maniacs want, yet. The parts still work in our government to make this grand experiment work better for the commonwealth, but we need to change out a few old and no longer useful parts before the whole thing collapses. And really...this kind of perpetual war is not controllable much less sustainable despite what Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and the other idiots think. How long do these guys think an exhausting state of affairs can continue before the integral components of their own vision of the American Super Power War Machine run low? The subsistence here for such a concept is unrealistic especially with rogue nukes and nuclear material unaccounted for out there. What happens when the well runs dry? People tire and in the U.S. the everyday citizen tires fast of those persistant headlines like war...genocide...world hunger...you know all those things that are under that umbrella known as POLITICS. Hey, it's the way it was orchastrated. We're not a politically interested society. We're disinterested if it takes "TOO LONG," but when it comes to war oh boy it'd better be packaged and sold quickly. This one was, but shit unraveled "unexpectedly" and suddenly the idiots that "planned" the war and propaganda for it fucked up mainly because of arrogance and idiocy.

We sit separated so far from governance and so far from politics that we're forced to watch the two split completely to the point where both lose their common functionality. There was a duality to government in this country that helped to ensure stability and security. There have been some fucked up social issues within our country without ANY doubt, but the idea to make government as small as possible is as fucked up a social issue as we'll face. That we have witnessed government expand in areas that dictate our personal lives, infringe and take away our liberties, and watch it shrink in the areas just where and when we need it the most is proof that government hasn't just failed us...it's being used against the best interests of the commonwealth both individually through strategic discrimination and collectively by parasitic leadership. Who says there isn't an Ameristocracy within the globally expanded corporate world? We give our lives to the rich. Let's see them try to make it without the rest of us. Chop off the top and guess what? There is still a top, but cut out the bottom 99% hell 51% and you know what you have? A much worse situation than anything the elite can imagine. It's the thinking that the rest of us have what we have BECAUSE of the RICH in this country...oh my. That is hilarious and the funniest thing is that the favored interests displayed by our leading party (GOP) indicate that this is a shared mentality.

War is necessary right now in the Middle East for the U.S. brain child to continue its purpose in controlling the oil there. It wasn't my idea. Was it YOURS? Anyone? Well, whosoever the plan came from ought to know that the reason Congress okayed the war has long since fallen to the way side. So much for that. I guess now it's on to the whole liberate the Iraqi people (while simaltenously killing them and giving them reasons to hate the U.S. and join up with the jihadist terrorists) and "bringing democracy" to the Middle East. Man, so the plan was to occupy Iraq for decades all along? I didn't know all it took for democracy to work was one referendum vote...oh it doesn't? Well, yeah I guess then the U.S. military will be ordered to stick around for ten, twenty, thirty, years or so.

And as far as the tax breaks...not all of what was promised in Bush's actual plan will be given even to the upper middle class ($150,000+), most everyone else won't get shit that was advertised, and only the very rich will see anything significant. It's sick. The poor go off to fight while the rich sit back and make massive money from their deaths. I'd like to think Cheney is shittin' his pants right now, but he's probably stacking his money buying his way out in some way or another. ;) nah...I don't actually think he will be indicted, but it's not like he is the most earnest and wholesome human being.
 
iwant8inches said:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/

The shit that is war. Which T word is it that the leaders of our nation not want to spread? Terrorism or the truth? Torture is a t word too but it obviously isn't the answer here.

this is somewhat related to this thread in that torture is a part of the U.S.'s accepted methods when dealing with...detainees. Hydromaxm...something and then really something just shouldn't sit right with the public there...

This war...was it necessary? If you can ask several years after the war while it is still being fought...Fighting fire with fire...bring em on...smoke em out...whatever possessed this nation back in 03 I'll never know, but apparently a few war slogans, lies, and shameless propaganda had something to do with it.

http://alternet.org/waroniraq/27453/

There is more info out there about torture sites then I imagined as well, but here's a little more insight on the situation of U.S. sanctioned torture and detainee stories.
 
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