I wanted to make my opinion on this subject, crystal clear, and would like to hear everyone's feedback.

I believe the death penalty must be abolished because no person has the right to kill another coldly in a premeditated, organized manner. Those such criminals that partake and commit murder, have an extreme illness, and they must be kept apart from society. They need to be shown that through violence, they cannot get a "free pass", or take the easy way out by being executed. They should be isolated from others who committed petty offenses, while at the same time they can think about the monstrous nature of their actions.

Never forget that all criminals are sick, and always consider them as such. We are shocked when we remember that back in the day we used to suffocate people between matresses if they suffered from fits of hysteria. Some day, when we are able to cure the sickness of crime, we will be just as shocked when we look back at how we used to kill criminals.

I like to take Jesus as an example and forgive those who have done me any harm unintentionally, and hold no "beef" with anyone who causes me harm intentionally. Those people are sick, for one must be ill to harm one's neighbor.

But if someone wants to harm you or your family, try to subdue them. If you can't, then you have the right to defend yourself to save your own life or the lives of loved ones. On the contrary, never hit with the intent to kill, even in legitimate defense. You should try only to render the person harmless- by knocking him/her out. If the blow you give turns out to be fatal, don't worry- as long as you didn't have the intention to kill.

Some violent people need to be subdued by force, and sometimes by direct action. Violent behavior is intolerable, and you should'nt tolerate it, even if you have to forcibly restrain violent people. But always use a non-violent force, a force applied without evil intentions, suffiecient only to overcome those who do harm.

Any threat of violence should be treated as seriously as the actual deed. To threaten violence is to think it possible, and to see it as an acceptable way of achieving one's goals. A person who threatens with violence, is as dangerous as someone who already has committed a violent act.

Finally, when dealing with those who take hostages, think first of the lives of the innocent people who are not in the hands of the hostage-takers. People who take hostages are sick, and you shouldn't give in to their wishes. We must never give in to them because by doing so you encourage others to copy those actions.
 
when Jesus said "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" it was because peeps were taking an eye, arm and 'nads, for a tooth. I believe that he meant that the retribution shouldn't be more than the crime. I also believe that when someone in this country tramples on "a victims" rights by committing a criminal act the should forfeit there rights for their entire jail term.
A jail cell should be 8' long 3' wide 9' high with toilet 1 roll of toilet paper per month, minimal food, and you get out of your cell once a month for a shower,and 15" of exercise.
As far as the death penalty is a joke anyway it costs more to kill them than it does to keep them in jail their whole life anyway.
I say Just stick all the murders, rapists, lawyers, computer hackers, in a football arena hand them Uzi's and let the cops shoot the last one standing! :P
 
I'll be quick and to the point.
If you take a life than your life should also be taken.
If you commit certain crimes such as treason, terrorism and traitorism ect ect than that should call upon a death sentence.
The death sentence for me would be hanging, but it isnt that nice really is it? so better to use a lethal injection, put the scum down.
Please note the UK has a death penalty and thats for treason where its hanging.
 
I'd say sometimes even treason is understandable. The only time treason is treasonous in nature is if it is against the safety and overall security of the country and more importantly the common people/military/government officials etc. But the leaders of a country need to be put in place every now and then as history can tell us. The men who helped found the States were committing treason. There's always justified arguments for killing, violence and the appropriate punisHydromaxents. I'm sorry, but the most obvious case of anyone being capable of at least being hypocritical when it comes to being wholly non-violent is if someone is strangling, stabbing, shooting, or otherwise causing severe harm to a loved one before your eyes. I would kill or at least try to kill the person trying to kill my brother, mother, father, etc. You can't live by a credo when it comes to sheer survival and that is what life comes down to in the most raw terms.
 
Originally posted by iwant8inches
There's always justified arguments for killing, violence and the appropriate punisHydromaxents. I'm sorry, but the most obvious case of anyone being capable of at least being hypocritical when it comes to being wholly non-violent is if someone is strangling, stabbing, shooting, or otherwise causing severe harm to a loved one before your eyes. I would kill or at least try to kill the person trying to kill my brother, mother, father, etc.

I don't agree that there's any justified argument for violence used against a non-violent person. That's the main problem we're seeing in Iraq. All the soldiers think that they are doing the "right" thing, because Bush tells us "war is unfortunate but neccessary to rid the world of evil". People will do anything for a great cause. The art of governing is to convince the people of the greatness of their country. So thousands of innocent Iraqi civilans are killed and noone even thinks twice about it. Now we can understand why Jesus was crucified, why millions of people died at the hands of the Inquisition, during religious or civil wars, and through the Nazi massacres. It becomes alot easier to understand how a simple green grocer or banker can become a crucifier, or an S.S. solider. They all thought that they were doing the "right thing" for humanity. The first ones were eliminating a rebel who challenged their authority and their traditions, and others felt that people who lived differently were responsible for the bad crops or the plague or even the economical crisis. Idiots can be excused of thinking these ideas, but not the governments, who by giving these crazy ideas to the masses, control and manipulate them for their own ends.
 
"An eye for an eye" is O.T. isn't it? I think the justice system is very flawed, the use of the death penalty is capricious at best; but some crimes just seem to beg for it.
 
The Canadian Coalition Against the Death Penalty, or CCADP, is doing an alright job fighting this law and has even successfully fought innocent death row inmates cases with them, funding their lawyers in retrials and won, and thats the obviously the worst thing about this whole business, is there are one fuckload of innocent people in prison....

http://www.ccadp.org/

One really good dated link on it shows the mass of people Goerge Bush executed as governor, more than any other in US history, and is just another in the sea of cases that shows what an utter pile of shit he really is.

http://ccadp.org/serialpresident.htm

A crazy part of that site I remember seeing is how they have listings of death row inmates, the hardest mother fuckers you've ever laid eyes on, who just want a penpal or someone to talk to.....
 
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Illness? Ha ha haaaa. Yes they are 'sick' we must 'help' them. Bullshit. People kill because they are insane and need to stay in a mental facility for the rest of their lives no matter how much they 'recover.' Other than that, its greed, lust, hate, or other forms of evil. They are not sick, they just made a bad choice. The death penalty should be legal across the US. Capital punisHydromaxent cuts back on prison costs (wages, building jails, cost to house inamtes.)

3 strikes needs to be used. You know how many sexual offenders are repeat offenders? A huge percentage (dont have #s right in front of me). We need to castrate them 1st time with 20 years in jail no parole, no 'good behavior'. 2nd time 30 years no parole, no 'good behavior'. 3rd time if they arent dead by now, death penalty.

Lastly we need to make jails in 3rd world countries and pay them to house our prisoners. It would be cheaper, we could help 3rd world countries, + no prisoner would want to be in a 3rd world country prison.

I think our justice system is way too lenient. People sympathize and try to 'understand' and 'rehabilitate.' The only thing you need to understand is they are comitting atrocious crimes, that deserve atrocious impisonment times and prisons.

P.S. that site is fucking bullshit. They are such crocks. "As the iraqi war distracts another decorated soldier is killed". They are saying how honorable he is and how he did well in the war and was decorated.

Of course they dont focus on the fact he kidnapped, raped, and murdered a 19 yr old private woman. Canada and other sympathizing nations make me fucking sick. Im out :)
 
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Originally posted by derringer57
Illness? Ha ha haaaa. Yes they are 'sick' we must 'help' them. Bullshit. People kill because they are insane and need to stay in a mental facility for the rest of their lives no matter how much they 'recover.' Other than that, its greed, lust, hate, or other forms of evil. They are not sick, they just made a bad choice. The death penalty should be legal across the US. Capital punisHydromaxent cuts back on prison costs (wages, building jails, cost to house inamtes.)

I consider killing under the guise of war killing too. How can a soldier who shoots an innocent civilian be any less "insane" than any other murderer? Both have the same intent and delivery. Not to mention end result.
 
Kal-el said:
I don't agree that there's any justified argument for violence used against a non-violent person. That's the main problem we're seeing in Iraq. All the soldiers think that they are doing the "right" thing, because Bush tells us "war is unfortunate but neccessary to rid the world of evil". People will do anything for a great cause. The art of governing is to convince the people of the greatness of their country. So thousands of innocent Iraqi civilans are killed and noone even thinks twice about it. Now we can understand why Jesus was crucified, why millions of people died at the hands of the Inquisition, during religious or civil wars, and through the Nazi massacres. It becomes alot easier to understand how a simple green grocer or banker can become a crucifier, or an S.S. solider. They all thought that they were doing the "right thing" for humanity. The first ones were eliminating a rebel who challenged their authority and their traditions, and others felt that people who lived differently were responsible for the bad crops or the plague or even the economical crisis. Idiots can be excused of thinking these ideas, but not the governments, who by giving these crazy ideas to the masses, control and manipulate them for their own ends.

So, then we're talking about the difference between self preservation and unjustified or otherwise unnecessary killing/violence? I am on about the same page as you when it comes to the Iraq situation, but I'm just saying you can't place all of these scenarios under an umbrella. Killing and violence is part of our history and obviously a part of our society. Someday maybe we'll rid the world of murder and other atrocious acts, but for now I don't believe that killing is always unjustifiable. This world is not a vaccum and we'll always be subjected to the situations and consequences of someone else's along with our own actions/reactions.
 
I stand by my beliefs
If you take a life than your life should also be taken.
If you commit certain crimes such as treason, terrorism and traitorism ect ect than that should call upon a death sentence
 
Originally posted by iwant8inches
So, then we're talking about the difference between self preservation and unjustified or otherwise unnecessary killing/violence? I am on about the same page as you when it comes to the Iraq situation, but I'm just saying you can't place all of these scenarios under an umbrella. Killing and violence is part of our history and obviously a part of our society. Someday maybe we'll rid the world of murder and other atrocious acts, but for now I don't believe that killing is always unjustifiable. This world is not a vaccum and we'll always be subjected to the situations and consequences of someone else's along with our own actions/reactions.

Killing and violence may be part of our history, but indeed it is a mistake to view the past to predict future events. We should instead be critical of the past and build the present for the future instead of building the present on the basis of the past.
 
Kal-el said:
but indeed it is a mistake to view the past to predict future events.

Not to say what you have said is wrong. But if everybody had a full grasp of History and the world Changing Historical Events, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in today.
 
Kal, let me ask you a question, If some cruel bastard raped and killed you wife and your 2 year old daughter, would you want them put in jail for 30 years, or would you want to throw the switch to the electric chair? I know for me I would want the bastard killed by the most cruelest method that I could think of. I'm with Red if a person takes a life, then his/her life should also be taken. In the UK now, they have abolished the death penalty, but with the recent terrorist bombings I hope they reinstate it. I agree that the police should have the right to shoot to kill any person who is a suspected bomber.
 
Originally posted by Duppi KronKite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal-el
but indeed it is a mistake to view the past to predict future events.



Not to say what you have said is wrong. But if everybody had a full grasp of History and the world Changing Historical Events, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in today.

I understand your point of view, but I think to make the world more peaceful, we should examine the way we think. I like to think "outside the box." History is simply a succession of mistakes, intolerances, and violations which were made by primitive people.

The single most important innovation of our time is television, the source of genuine planetary awareness that makes it possible to see what goes on every day all over the globe, while we realize that the primitive people who live on the other side of the border have all the same joys, sorrows, and problems as we do. T.V. also records the progress of science, artistic creations, and so on. But at the same time, as we see with some news stations, (FOX being an exemplary example) it falled itno the hands of people who use it to condition the masses with biased info.
 
You speak about thinking outside of the box but you get your information from the "Propaganda Box", the greatest hypnotist to the world conciousness??

If a person reasearches history they notice events happening a certain way and people reacting to these events a certain way. The events keep occurring and people keep reacting the exact same way which makes the outcomes the same.

What if the T.V. was created to condition the masses with biased info?

What if by learning History one noticed the present to be the same movie with different actors?

Would we finally be free and peaceful or is it in us to be hedonistic and controlled by the very people we claim to be evil...
 
Originally posted by British prick
Kal, let me ask you a question, If some cruel bastard raped and killed you wife and your 2 year old daughter, would you want them put in jail for 30 years, or would you want to throw the switch to the electric chair? I know for me I would want the bastard killed by the most cruelest method that I could think of. I'm with Red if a person takes a life, then his/her life should also be taken. In the UK now, they have abolished the death penalty, but with the recent terrorist bombings I hope they reinstate it. I agree that the police should have the right to shoot to kill any person who is a suspected bomber.

Well, hypothetically speaking of course, if that happened a part of me would want to fry the person, but then that would be against everything I believe. In that case, I would try to instate Jesus' famous Golden Rule- "Do unto others as you would have them do to you." I beleive by the way we are progressing, in the maybe distant future, we will be able to cure criminal activity, since it is an illness, and until we can these criminals must be kept outside society , and we must try to make them understand that their behavior is dreadful.
 
Originally posted by Duppi Kronkite
You speak about thinking outside of the box but you get your information from the "Propaganda Box", the greatest hypnotist to the world conciousness??

What exactly are you referring to when you say "Propaganda Box?"

What if the T.V. was created to condition the masses with biased info?

I don't believe that's the case. It may be that way now though. In any case, there is the internet too. I forgot to mention that earlier. It is a fantastic creation, that wasn't even around a little while ago. See what technology can do! Today, Parents have no idea what their children will go through. They can't imagine what kind of future they will know, because everything changes so fast, and evolves at an ever-increasing speed. For example, children today are surrounded by advanced technology such as the internet, video games, and digital television. A child can hardly understand that his grandfather once rode on horses instead of cars, that he didn't have electricity, and that every year he could die from a simple cold he caught in Januaury. But just like his grandfather, the child hasn't seen anything yet!


If a person reasearches history they notice events happening a certain way and people reacting to these events a certain way. The events keep occurring and people keep reacting the exact same way which makes the outcomes the same.

What we need to do is to let go of our primitive ideas, and see the present world for all its good, instead of being held back by our fears of the past.

Compared to now, life was a series of traumatic sufferings compounded with ignorance, fear and cruelty. It dosen't suprise me that the "corrupt" religions glorified this suffering and made it a key to heaven. And while they hope that their children would have a better life, or hope that the future would hold more promise, or hope that their suffering was not for nothing, and they would be rewarded some day- in heaven. And that heaven is today! We are reaping the heaven of their toils. In each generation there have been honorable people who took what was good and made it better, or stood up against what was bad. Bit by bit, each generation of scientists, architechts, merchants, leaders, teachers, learning from their predecessors and adding their own contributions.

Anyway, we must make sure we take care of our elderly population. But we must respect the aged and do everything to make them happy, we should'nt listen to them because of their senoirity.
 
I would try to instate Jesus' famous Golden Rule- "Do unto others as you would have them do to you." I beleive by the way we are progressing, in the maybe distant future, we will be able to cure criminal activity, since it is an illness, and until we can these criminals must be kept outside society , and we must try to make them understand that their behavior is dreadful.
That Golden Rule needs to be taken in the context of the whole paragraph/page. That is the #1 reason the Bible is misinterpreted. It isnt an illness, it is evil, and there is no cure for evil, only driving it out, but then that dips back into my religious beliefs. You are too sympathetic. You will never make everyone or even most of the people understand, and many who do understand will blatantly claim they will do it again.

The surefire way which has worked in the past is to have a strong almost ruthless justice system that isnt lenient or tries to 'understand.'
 
originally posted by longTom
when Jesus said "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" it was because peeps were taking an eye, arm and 'nads, for a tooth.

I don't mean to pick on you longTom, but Jesus did'nt say that. He replaced that barbaric message on his famous "sermon on the mount" with "Love your enemies". Just some info- Mahatma Ghandi said, "If everyone followed eye for an eye, Americans would be blind."
 
Kal-el said:
Well, hypothetically speaking of course, if that happened a part of me would want to fry the person, but then that would be against everything I believe. In that case, I would try to instate Jesus' famous Golden Rule- "Do unto others as you would have them do to you." I beleive by the way we are progressing, in the maybe distant future, we will be able to cure criminal activity, since it is an illness, and until we can these criminals must be kept outside society , and we must try to make them understand that their behavior is dreadful.


Premeditated murder is not a disease but a an act of savagery. What Jesus also said a "an eye for an eye" to me that is plain enough. If some idiot who believes that blowing up innocent people is his way to heaven. Then I say the sooner we get him there, the better for all.
 
Kal-El way off base as usual. Talking about propaganda and bias???

Mahatma Ghandi said, "If everyone followed eye for an eye, Americans would be blind."... Its and the whole world would go blind. Stop hating on American you sleezy low life liar and get your facts straight, so when you do take that 2% of your post to break away from your baseless banter of rhetoric you can sound semi-intelligent.

British, did you read my other post? I repeat Jesus Did Not say that.
Well... the Bible is divinely inspired. He is the word and the word is Him. Therefor the Bible is the living, inspired word of God...

Read Nahum 1... Lets see some nice quotes from JUST this single book...

2 The LORD is a jealous and avenging God;
the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath.
The LORD takes vengeance on his foes
and maintains his wrath against his enemies.

3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power;
the LORD will not leave the guilty unpunished.
His way is in the whirlwind and the storm,

......

6 Who can withstand his indignation?
Who can endure his fierce anger?
His wrath is poured out like fire;
the rocks are shattered before him.

7 The LORD is good,
a refuge in times of trouble.
He cares for those who trust in him,

8 but with an overwhelming flood
he will make an end of Nineveh ;
he will pursue his foes into darkness
....

14 The LORD has given a command concerning you, Nineveh :
"You will have no descendants to bear your name.
I will destroy the carved images and cast idols
that are in the temple of your gods.
I will prepare your grave,
for you are vile."

15 Look, there on the mountains,
the feet of one who brings good news,
who proclaims peace!
Celebrate your festivals, O Judah,
and fulfill your vows.
No more will the wicked invade you;
they will be completely destroyed.
You can read the whole thing at http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Nahum 1;&version=31; to make sure I am just giving my side of it....

Haha people have a biased view of Jesus as a meek philosopher, which is only one side of him, but many forget or dont know how he turned over tables weighing 100s of lbs, called down fire and brimstone on whole cities, etc...

Sorry Kal-El, but you obviously do not know much of the Bible, just little snippets. If you did, you would know Jesus supports capitol punisHydromaxent lol, he has dealt it more than a few times...
 
originally posted by derringer57
Mahatma Ghandi said, "If everyone followed eye for an eye, Americans would be blind."... Its and the whole world would go blind. Stop hating on American you sleezy low life liar and get your facts straight, so when you do take that 2% of your post to break away from your baseless banter of rhetoric you can sound semi-intelligent.

Yes, I didn't have the exact quote in front of me, for that I apologize.


Haha people have a biased view of Jesus as a meek philosopher, which is only one side of him, but many forget or dont know how he turned over tables weighing 100s of lbs, called down fire and brimstone on whole cities, etc...

Correct. He did turn the tables and chase out the merchants in the temple.

Sorry Kal-El, but you obviously do not know much of the Bible, just little snippets. If you did, you would know Jesus supports capitol punisHydromaxent , he has dealt it more than a few times...

I may be wrong, but I don't think so, maybe you can enlighten me and give me some examples; since you are soooooo smarter than I.
 
I guess common sense just isnt so common, if you would of read Nahum 1, I quoted almost all of it, you can see Jesus killing people... not unjustly however.

Genesis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Happy now? Jesus supports the death penalty, and Jesus enacted it more than once. ;) Thanks for the compliment, I dont think Im a ton smarter, just a bit better informed. :D
 
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It seems as though your "facts" revolve around false assumptions. Primarily, that Capital PunisHydromaxent is a tool used to smite the wicked. In fact, it has been proven to be racist and inaccurate. In all actuality, Capital PunisHydromaxent is NOT a blessing for a murderer, it is a curse on the innocent.If you believe revenge is justified, then the penality ought to match the crime. I.E. a rapist is raped. Under the idea of justified revenge, the death penality is not an eye for an eye, it is an eye for a tooth. If you disagree with revenge, then the death penalty is also not justified becaue the senseless killing of a human being is no way to solve crime. Fear and hate only prolong crime.
 
The reason you assume Jesus supported capital punisHydromaxent is because you are taking these OUT OF CONTEXT to get your
opinion. You MUST look at the Bible as a whole. Jesus was a Victim of capital punisHydromaxent, therefore, he did'nt dish it out.
 
Romans 13:3-4
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punisHydromaxent on the wrongdoer
Kal-el, you cant win. You have no grasp on what the Bible is and I dont even understand why you are quoting Jesus.

You cant simply believe he was a good man and nothing more. He is either a David Koresh who either lied about being God, and/or he is crazy to claim such a thing, or he is in fact God. Which do you choose?

Exodus 21:12
Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death.
Lol these verses dont get any more blatant. I am sorry, but you sit there ignorantly, and provide NO VERSE to say otherwise. You just claim mine are out of context, yet you dont even quote the context of the verse to prove otherwise. Do the research yourself, and since you are claiming it is out of context surely you did? If so why not quote the context?

You have preconceived notions, that are based on nothing more than misinformation. The Bible is what it is, not the way you want it to be.

The reason you assume Jesus supported capital punisHydromaxent is because you are taking these OUT OF CONTEXT to get your
opinion. You MUST look at the Bible as a whole. Jesus was a Victim of capital punisHydromaxent, therefore, he did'nt dish it out.
Victim? He willingly went to the cross...
Matthew 5:17-19
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
He came to verify the law, not to change it haha.

Revenge is wrong, justice is not. By the way...

Exodus 21:14-17
But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.

15 "Anyone who attacks [c] his father or his mother must be put to death.

16 "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.

17 "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.
More than just murder got the death penalty in Gods eyes.

Sorry Kal-El you quote no scripture and you just pompously spew rubbish out your mouth at my scriptural quotes claiming they are wrong. Seriously, can you be any more foolish/wrong?

P.S. Jesus is God, and God 'dished it out,' plenty of times in the Bible. Soddom and Gomorra (spelling?) is one large scale example of this. You have no sciptural references just shut up when it comes to the Bible if your so ignorant.
 
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You're going to attempt to manufacture the opinions of perhaps the most positive, gentle man in human history with cheap-ass chicanery like old testament quotes and oter poetic babblings?
 
Kal-el Im done with you, youre pathetic man. You dont know what the hell your talking about and you dont listen to truth when it slaps you in the face. By the way nice way to slam the Bible, which this "nice positive, man," said is His word. By the way Matthew is New Testament and not poetry. I am not manufacturing His opinion, he manufactured his own opinion and guide to life, Its called the Holy Bible. I just posted plenty of scriptures and examples where God used/condoned capital punisHydromaxent, none of them which you address. Good job. Can we not forget the killing of each first born son of Egypt?

I think the intellctual crowd watching, if any, realize you lost. By the way good dodge on the question about what you think Jesus is. He was either a crazy and/or liar, or what he claimed.

Positive and gentle doesnt mean He didnt have wrath. Do you know the number of times the Bible talks about God's wrath in the Bible (thus the common coined turn The Wrath of God)? Ill leave you and anyone else reading with one last scripture.

Romans 1:18-23
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

PS keep posting your propaganda Ill start and continue to post my propaganda warning label.
 
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Derringer57, capital punisHydromaxent is definetly a controveral issue. People can take quotes from the bible and fit them to push their own "agenda".

Originally posted by derringer57
I think the intellctual crowd watching, if any, realize you lost. By the way good dodge on the question about what you think Jesus is. He was either a crazy and/or liar, or what he claimed.

Well, if you consider this a game of sorts, and have nothing better to do with your life, I say congrats! As for the question, I beleive Jesus was exactly what he said he was.

Derringer, this sounds like it is Really important to you to better me in this discussion. I'll have to give you this-you are a good debater, and it seems like you put alot of thought into this.
 
I am pushing no agenda, I believe exactly what the Bible says and what Jesus said. He claimed He is God and he claimed the Bible is his living word. If you think the Bible or Jesus said otherwise about capital punisHydromaxent feel free to quote it. I am not trying to be 'better' then you in debate, being a good debater is all well and good but its only a means to an end. My goal in this 'debate' is to enlighten any readers as to the Biblical view on capital punisHydromaxent.
 
Derringer57,yes, and you can keep your mythology. You err when you say we have to make a choice about Jesus, because we don't.

You put too much stock in a book written by men. Any man can write anything he likes, but that does not mean the only option is to accept it simply because it was written.

Go with the fairy tale, if you like. But keep it in your own back yard.

And why should anyone give a shit what your invisible man in the clouds thinks of capital punisHydromaxent? IF he exists, he is not doing anything in the here and now, so what point would there be in valuing the opinion of a kid with an ant farm?
 
Derringer57,yes, and you can keep your mythology. You err when you say we have to make a choice about Jesus, because we don't.
You either choose to follow him or choose not to follow him, and there are grave consequences for not. I think you dont make a decision because your scared or dont know what to believe.

You put too much stock in a book written by men. Any man can write anything he likes, but that does not mean the only option is to accept it simply because it was written.
Lol you were just the one trying to tell me what Jesus stood for, calling him a kind man agreeing what you said he was. He said the Bible was His word.

Go with the fairy tale, if you like. But keep it in your own back yard.

And why should anyone give a shit what your invisible man in the clouds thinks of capital punisHydromaxent? IF he exists, he is not doing anything in the here and now, so what point would there be in valuing the opinion of a kid with an ant farm?
You got issues. You go from saying you agree with what Jesus said (he is God) to defaming that God saying he doesnt exist. Pitiful pitiful man. Seems like being right in an argument (which you obviously arent, and this isnt a mystery to anyone here), is your only prerogative. You will change your opinion on a whim as long as it is not your oppositions...

By the way if my backyard includes the whole world then ok. If it includes millions of churches across the entire world in every language, in all 238 country (yes even China, with 30 million in Han Charismatic House Churches), in every possible niche and the worst places (yes even up in northeast russia where its freezing and there is barely any daytime, Thank you country Christian star Dennis Agajanian), then ok that is my backyard. If my backyard fits 2 billion of likeminded people, following the SAME worldwide best-selling book (The Bible), who include Roman Catholics, Independent Christians, Protestants, Anglecans, Orthodox, Evangelicals, and Charismatics/Pentecostals.. then I guess I have a realy big backyard.

Obviously, your just a joke, trolling around a forum trying to spread liberal propaganda and 'win teh debate,' reminiscent of www.pwnde.nl , and that attitude ;) Later man your no longer worth wasting my words on.
 
Originally posted by derringer57
You either choose to follow him or choose not to follow him, and there are grave consequences for not. I think you dont make a decision because your scared or dont know what to believe.

Who's to decide what consequences awaits us? Everyone is entitiled to have an opinion. Your saying just because some don't believe in your mystical "God",they are Wrong. That is the mindframe of a closed-minded person.

Lol you were just the one trying to tell me what Jesus stood for, calling him a kind man agreeing what you said he was. He said the Bible was His word.

I personally believe the Bible is a witness to the truth. I believe the authors of it were trying their best to describe what they saw. In reality, not a distorted view of it, where you apparently live, there are no such things as divine miracles- only differences in levels of civilazation. If you had landed at the time of Jesus in a spacecraft, or even a simple helicopter,you would in the eyes of the people at that time, been performing miracles. Just by making artificial light, flying a plane, driving a car, watching TV, or even by killing a bird with a gun, because they would be incapable of understanding the science behind such things, people back then would have seen them as a "divine" or "supernatural" force.

You got issues. You go from saying you agree with what Jesus said (he is God) to defaming that God saying he doesnt exist. Pitiful pitiful man. Seems like being right in an argument (which you obviously arent, and this isnt a mystery to anyone here), is your only prerogative. You will change your opinion on a whim as long as it is not your oppositions...

What? I didn't quite get that. Anyway, we fly in the heavens, and our voices are carried to the four corners of the earth by means of radio waves. There is the internet, electric automobiles, digital television, new vaccines for age-old illnesses. So wake up and find out the truth!
 
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Who's to decide what consequences awaits us? Everyone is entitiled to have an opinion. Your saying just because some don't believe in your mystical "God",they are Wrong. That is the mindframe of a closed-minded person.
Sorry if I think the earth rotates around the sun, sorry if I think water is a liquid... I believe in absolute truths, I must be closeminded. At least Im not some relativist who cant back anything up because all truth is relative ;) We all hold absolute truths but it does not mean we are closeminded. I find the people yelling for tolerance and openmindedness the most, are typically the most intolerant closeminded people...

So Jesus had a time machine! He brought back a resurrection machine and a floating on water machine etc. Duh! Good job, genius work...

What? I didn't quite get that. Anyway, we fly in the heavens, and our voices are carried to the four corners of the earth by means of radio waves. There is the internet, electric automobiles, digital television, new vaccines for age-old illnesses. So wake up and find out the truth!
And yet the Bible is still relevant to current day living, maybe even moreso than the past... Funny with all the new techonlogical and scientific advances the Bible still holds true.
 
Originally posted by derringer57
And yet the Bible is still relevant to current day living, maybe even moreso than the past... Funny with all the new techonlogical and scientific advances the Bible still holds true.
Of course, it is the only book that remains un-touched in generations by law.

Now, onto some actual qutoes from your "holy" scripures:
Genesis 1:26 Let Us make man in Our own image after our likeness
"In Our image"- That sentence gives further proof that this "immaterial" God is not one, but many, unless you say its a typo. But that's the case in all bibles.

Jonah 1:17 Now God had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah, and Jonah was in the belly for three days and three nights.

Come on. Don't tell me you actually believe this? This "great fish" most likely was a suBathmatearine, or something of the like, as we know these vessels now. But for the people back then it could have only been a great fish, even though the gastric juices would have digested a man quickly without any hope of him returning to open air.

Jeremiah 10:14 Every man is brutish in his lack of knowledge...

That proves humans are "primitive" or "stupid and war-like" without science.

Whoever created us, at some point decided to send a messiah who would be able to communicate worldwide what the people of Israel were the only ones to know. This was in preparation for the day when the original "mystery" would be explained in the light of scientific progress.

Micah 5:2-5 But out of you, Bethlehem, shall come a governor for Israel, and whose roots are far back in the past, in days gone by... He shall stand and be their shepherd in the strength of God...to the ends of the earth, and he shall be a man of peace.

Zechariah 9: 9-10 Exult, daughters of Jerusalem, here is your King coming forth to you...humble and carried on a mule...he will dictate peace to the nations, his empire will cover from sea to sea.

Matthew 4: 24 Sufferers from ever kind of illness were all brought to him, and he cured them.

Matthew 8: 2-3 A leper approached him... Jesus stretched out his hand, touched him and said: Be clean again. And his leprosy was cured immediately

Being forcefully spoonfed that this information was in any way "divine" or "supernatural", shows a complete lack of science. Jesus was simply curing these illnesses the same way we do know, just back then people saw them as "miracles."

Matthew 9:13 I did not come to invite virtous people, but sinners.

He did'nt come for the people of Israel, who were aware of the existence of "god", but instead so this knowledge would be spread throughout the rest of the world.

Matthew 10:32 Whoever then will acknowledge me before men, I will acknowledge him before my father who is in heaven.

"Before my father in heaven"- that says it all. "God" isn't intagible, he is in "heaven". This is obviously inconprehensible to people who at that time believed that the stars were attached to a heavenly canopy just like light bulbs, all rotating around the center of the earth. Now since the advancement of space travel and the understanding of the immensity of the universe, the old texts are brought to a light in a completely differnt way.

Isaiah 29: 20-21 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed and all the watchers for the iniquity are cutt off. Those who by their word make man an offender, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.

This "terrible one" is indeed those people of the church, who make us believe in original sin and make us feel guilty. They lay traps for those who don't believe, and are trying to oust the just (those who speak the truth or who speak of justice). They are exactly like the people who crucified Jesus. These people were convinced that they were defending what was right without trying to understand.

So, like I said, the Bible is true, just the primitive people then tried their best to write down what they saw. In this extraordinary age of scientific discovieries, surgeries, television, the internert, video games, how can you believe in a white-bearded "God" or in a horned "devil", and scientists cannot give precise explanations of our origins?

To everyone who believed in "God" or in Jesus Christ, I say you were right in such a belief. Even If what you thought was not exactly as the church would have you believe, there was a coherent framework of truth. People are right to believe in the basis of the scriputures, but wrong to sustain the church. People that continue to hand out money to provide cardinals with vestments, and continue to allow the military and their nuclear threat, it means that people have not woken up, and they wish to stat primitive.

I see you are a closed-minded person. It is important that some reverse this attitude and be open to everything that comes from the outside, because all fear of strangers is further proof of ignorance.
 
Originally posted by derringer57 Read Nahum 1... Lets see some nice quotes from JUST this single book...


Quote:
2 The LORD is a jealous and avenging God;
the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath.
The LORD takes vengeance on his foes
and maintains his wrath against his enemies.

3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power;
the LORD will not leave the guilty unpunished.
His way is in the whirlwind and the storm,

......

6 Who can withstand his indignation?
Who can endure his fierce anger?
His wrath is poured out like fire;
the rocks are shattered before him.

7 The LORD is good,
a refuge in times of trouble.
He cares for those who trust in him,

8 but with an overwhelming flood
he will make an end of Nineveh ;
he will pursue his foes into darkness
....

14 The LORD has given a command concerning you, Nineveh :
"You will have no descendants to bear your name.
I will destroy the carved images and cast idols
that are in the temple of your gods.
I will prepare your grave,
for you are vile."

15 Look, there on the mountains,
the feet of one who brings good news,
who proclaims peace!
Celebrate your festivals, O Judah,
and fulfill your vows.
No more will the wicked invade you;
they will be completely destroyed.




I can't believe I over-looked this earlier, but it seems like the quotations you post came from Thessalonians and the book of Isiaih. Neither one of which quotes Jesus. To refresh your memory, Thessalonians was written by Paul(it is a letter written to the Thessalonians by Paul) and Isiaih was from the old testement, 1000's of yrs before Jesus was even born. Good effort though.
 
Originally posted by derringer57
And yet the Bible is still relevant to current day living, maybe even moreso than the past... Funny with all the new techonlogical and scientific advances the Bible still holds true.

Yes of course, and I believe that the Bible is the oldest athiest book in the world. There are hundreds of references to UFOs in the bible. For god's sake, it's nothing but a UFO digest!

There are 2 reasons for flying objects in the Bible remaing a good secret. The first is the time in which it was written. We live in a modern age with so much light on our planet that we can't see the stars at night and so many things flying around in our skys that our airports are running out of room to land them. I Never talked to anyone old enough to talk that dosen't know what UFO stands for. Highly advanced technological wonders are now commonplace. Considering the age of the writings in the 66 books of the Bible, they are between 2000 and 4000 years old. Let's not forget that this was a primitive and no-tech time, and that total absence of this technology is the key to understanding what the writers are describing. No houselights, streetlights, spotlights, searchlights, or neon signs. No private planes, jets, helicopters, blimps,missles, satelites, no Air Force One, and no lights and sounds that go with them. When someone tries to describe something that is flying, glowing, and flashing in the sky, it can only be described in terms related to that person's environment. Never having seen even a kite in the sky, the description can take alot of forms, all in the terms of that day. There just was nothing even remotely technological to liken it to. This is why there are clouds, whirlwinds, chariots, and platforms.

Even though Ezekeil's very close encounter with this strange craft is the most graphically detailed of all, it is 1 of many sightings. It dosen't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the pillar of a cloud became a pillar of fire because someone turned the lights on. But of course a simple [words=http://fleshlight.sjv.io/c/348327/302851/4702]FleshLight[/words] would scare someone living thousands of years ago.

I just don't see how intelligent people can believe in a white haired, bearded, angry, Zeus-like character sitting on a cloudy throne, and hurling thunderbolts at people. And a red-skinned yellow-eyed devil burning in a abyss, plucking up sinners with a pitchfork. This is a dark-ages myth.

Without the fear motivation of retribution, or eternal damnation, the leaders of this world's religions are powerless. Without their illegitamite authority they are powerless to keep making their pockets fatter. Powerless to incite wars, ignore poverty, play politics, give way to ignorance, and justify bigotry.

The truth is that we are Not alone now, and have never been. Fear, prejudice, denial, and deciet cannot change it, only mask it.
 
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