OK- let me explain my take on it. You can be fast without training, u can be strong without training.....but u won't be world class without training. I just think there are certain plateaus that couldn't have been reached without some type of outside force/energy put into it, which is what I think John Holmes did. Just my opinion, and even though how many inches he was is debatable, I'd say regardless it was at the point of being world class in size. Whether he was 8.75" or 11" ya know, and I think he secretly did something.