US Soldiers Torture Iraqi POW's

My opinion is, do un to others as they have done to you. Eye for an Eye. And if the soldiers are a having fun with it, its just because they have had to witness and be a part of things so vile the world people with Never hear about! Justice!
 
Supra said:
Hmm. I dont know what to think. It was so horrible
I hear ya Supe,but have you heard any of the tales coming home from our troops? Its indescribable! Changed my mind's thinking quite a bit!
 
ctmwm said:
I hear ya Supe,but have you heard any of the tales coming home from our troops? Its indescribable! Changed my mind's thinking quite a bit!

I have not, please tell me some of the stories.
 
Somebody would have to make one hell of an argument to convince me that any mistreatment of POW's is acceptable, especially by Americans. How can we lead the world when we behave in this fashion? The anger this will fuel in the East is extreme. Those soldiers did more to help the terrorists than they'll ever know, as each picture of Iraqi prisoner abuse will draw untold numbers of young arabs to terrorist recruiters. Human rights ough to be respected and maintained in all situations, war included. By torturing POWs we are in violation of the Geneva Convention, International Law dictated by such precident, UN regulations under which we are signed participants, and our own internal policy. This 'eye for an eye' cycle of violence and rationalization is the same flavor of thinking and propaganda that the terrorists employ. A lack of respect for human life and dignity is presented in those photos, and anybody that disputes this would do well to read the accounts now being disclosed that involve beatings, dog attacks, and threats of electrical torture, including the attachments of open wires to a prisoner's genitals. Thoroughly disgusting.
 
POWs are ALWAYS tortured. It's been like that forever. We need info from prisoners and they aren't exactly willing to betray their country. So we have to torture it out of them. It has always been this way, and probably always will be this way.
 
I am surprised to hear this, are you advocating this behavior? What occurred was not only unlawful, but inhumane and ostensibly useless. They weren't deliberately totrutred in an organized manner to extract information, although that would have been thoroughly illegal and disgusting as well, they were simply harrassed, beaten, humiliated, and otherwise degraded for no particular reason. Treating captured combatants in a humane fashion after they have been removed from the battlefield and are no longer a threat to our own soldiers is a great show of rationality and humanity in otherwise terrible situation, and conducting ourselves in this fashion would demonstrate that the US and liberal democracies are truly the most advanced nations. Agreeing on humane prisoner treatment under the Genvea Convention was a huge accomplishment for international human rights, and as I recall many people are constantly using Sadam's brutal treatment of prisoners as a good reason to invade his country in the wake of finding no WMDs. Please accept my apologies if I find it perfectly ridiculous that you might somehow justify torturing people as a necessary action for the strongest military force in all of history. Human lives are human lives, Iraqi or American. As a Christian, Cyclops, I would hope that you would assign more importance to this fundamental truth. The horror of war does not somehow justify unecessary and unwarranted cruelty. Even President Bush, much as I loathe him, has gone on record as being outraged by the behavior.

Learn some empathy gentlemen. For every grieving American mother, there are ten Iraqi women who have lost their sons. It's easy to sit over here in the states and say 'fuck 'em' they're against us and killing our boys. But our boys are there because we invaded, and that is not the fault any one Iraqi soldier, or the many civillians we have accidentally killed. War is awful, even more so when it is not an absolutly necessary measure in order to prevent an even greater tragedy (WWII as a prime example). Just try to remember that people lose and suffer on both sides. Iraqis may seem ungrateful, hostile, ignorant, but remeber that had you not been blessed enough to be born and live where you do, you may very well have been one of them. Do not be so arrogant as to think that an American life is more valuable than any other, indeed that attitude is one of the reasons so many countries don't particularly care for us right now. In this world we are all products of circumstance to a great degree, but we are united by our common human experience, including suffering. Keep that in mind before you casually dismiss things like the torture of POWs as a fact of life.
 
I think....its about FUCKING TIME!!

I dont wanna hear the fuzzy heart b.s. ..."we're supposed to set the example...geneva convention...bla blaaa" ....we're about the only damn country that ever pays attention to that stuff. Maybe if we did this sort of stuff more often, other countries would have more respect for us...and, or FEAR for the American troops when we resort to battling with them. Nothing wrong with being feared.

It's like the thing that happened several months ago over there with one of our officers. Think the guy was either Army or Marine ...pretty high ranking, near retirement. Our guys captured some Iraqis that knew something about an assassination plot to take out some military/officers on OUR side. Tried interrogations and being "political" with these fucks. Nothing worked until this officer pulled his service pistol out and fired off a shot near the guys head. Dude supposedly spilled his guts after that and told them everything he knew about the plot. Saved several lives on OUR side. Now that officer is facing charges because of the way he acted.......LIKE A DAMN HERO!! That type of shit makes me sick.
 
No offense intended to anyone, but frankly U.S military isn't even supposed to be in Iraq, considering that they have done everything they were supposed to(without really asking anyone). They removed Saddam and didn't find any "weapons of mass destruction"(like there were any...). The U.S is about the the only damn country that puts their nose into other countrie's business and that's what the U.N was made for.Stillwantmore, the only thing you would be achieving is making them HATE you not FEAR you. They have nothing to lose and death for them means "salvation" and respect. While a U.S mercenary has everything to lose and nothing to look forward to.
 
I'm with Swank on this, two wrongs don't make a right.

Plus, has anyone heard how Saddam is singing like a canary, no torture required, he's giving up info to the allied forces to catch his top guys basically for an occassional big mac meal. However I'm not surprised to hear he has less conviction on his beliefs than those he has brainwashed and opressed.
 
The UK soldiers have done worse LOL its been allover the papers here.
I think its GREAT, TORTURE the fuckers .... EYE for a fuckin EYE, they were gunna kill UZ so we fuckin make there life a dogs one, theres so many goody goodies about, thats how this got leaked to us, the Brit troops involved could face charges now.
At the end of the day, those Iraqi soldiers WOULD have done WORSE to us mate, I heard the storys from the last wars with Iraq and OUR POW's .... they went PAST evil.
Let um rot I say, I'd force feed them there own shit and boot the fuckin teeth they carry down there smelly camel stinking mouths, the smelly arsewipes.
 
Also as Still says WE are the ONLY ones who do ANYTHING, unlike the coward French who sit on there ASSS amongst others, ''Let the Yanks and brits do it all''
Plus, TORTURE to POW's lol been going on for YEARS and YEARS before Christ came outta marys fanny .... the Brits were tortured terrible by the japanese in WW2, it was terrible what they did ... made us build bridges with NO FOOD or waterm them men were SKELETONS and many died .... no one batted an eyelid .... why cos there BRITISH, same with the US.
US and UK troops and peeps, if there tortured or shot hardly anyone cares, yet if they do anything ALL HELL BRAKES LOOSE.
At the end of the day those POW's in Iraq are EVIL bastards from Saddams regine, they would NEVER care less for us, so I say do wotcha want with um.
Like I said, I'd kick there fuckin teeth in .... ASAP infact I would LOVE DOING IT.
 
I've never agreed with 'us' being over in Iraq in the first place, but war is war. It's never going to be "fair" on either side of the battle. Whether anyone agrees with the reasoning behind the conflict...thats not important. During a war or any big conflict where violence is involved between two groups, you are going to have people being hurt, killed, tortured, etc. It's only up to whoever is in charge on either side as to who gets tortured (or who hears about it ;)) and who does not.

This sort of stuff has never been pretty. People have always been tortured to some extent on either side. It's only more common with todays widespread media and the ability to nearly instantly broadcast "news" worldwide...that we hear more about stuff like this.
 
War maybe war, but the fact is that the US can easily stop this war and all the killing by taking it's troops back were they belong.So all the complaints about your soldiers being killed and tortured lack logic.Anyway there are the psychological methods of torture, which are not banned by the Geneve Convention. For example tieing the subject in a dark silent room and having water drip on his forhead drop by drop(this is the most popular "legal" torture in the Israeli army). Sleep deprvation is also allowed. There are a lot of methods acctually.
 
Well gentlemen, all that I can say in response is that our president and our congress, as well as all the top military leadership don't see it your way. The people that are actually in positions of authority and power in matters of war don't see torture as justified or necessary, and thank god as far as I'm concerned. Freely advocating cruelty like that just shows what this type of gung-ho mentality does to us as a nation. As somebody else kindly restated, that does not make the enemy fear us, that is preposterous. It makes them hate us more, and in the end will cost more lives as untold numbers of angy, poor, uneducated young arabs see pictures of people that look just like them being tortured by US soldiers who are posing for the camera with mile wide grins and two thumbs up. My own father had a long military career, served in WWII and Korea, then went on to the state department and evetually became a diplomat. As a young man he taught me that the greatest tragedy of war is that it robs us of our respect for human diginity, and that the onyl way to be a true success in such matters is do everything you can to preserve your humanity and reflect this in your conduct.

By advocating torture just because they would have 'done the same to us,' i hardly see how we have a superior mentality to any terrorist. Why are terrorists evil? They don't respect human life and use violence and fear to achieve their goals. Hmmm, now what is torturing another human being, who is held captive and has no way to defend themselves? Once you're off the battle field and you don't have a rifle in your hand, the rules change lads, it's as simple as that. And Stillwantmore, you seem to be a very nice and reasonable person, but the Geneva-blah-blah as you call it, is an achievement of massive importance in the world that dictates much of what we base international law upon. Nobody should pick up a gun before they've thoroughly read history. The torture is an uncalled for show of animal cruelty and ignorance, and does absolutly no good in the world. Stick up for the men that fight bravely for their country on the battlefield, not the ones that idle away their time abusing defenseless human beings for fun.
 
Zurik said:
War maybe war, but the fact is that the US can easily stop this war and all the killing by taking it's troops back were they belong.So all the complaints about your soldiers being killed and tortured lack logic.Anyway there are the psychological methods of torture, which are not banned by the Geneve Convention. For example tieing the subject in a dark silent room and having water drip on his forhead drop by drop(this is the most popular "legal" torture in the Israeli army). Sleep deprvation is also allowed. There are a lot of methods acctually.

YOU chill out.
Leave the US and UK to do what the WORLD is SCARED to do....FIGHT TERRORISM.
Dont keep runnin our methods down.
 
Swank said:
Well gentlemen, all that I can say in response is that our president and our congress, as well as all the top military leadership don't see it your way. The people that are actually in positions of authority and power in matters of war don't see torture as justified or necessary, and thank god as far as I'm concerned. Freely advocating cruelty like that just shows what this type of gung-ho mentality does to us as a nation. As somebody else kindly restated, that does not make the enemy fear us, that is preposterous. It makes them hate us more, and in the end will cost more lives as untold numbers of angy, poor, uneducated young arabs see pictures of people that look just like them being tortured by US soldiers who are posing for the camera with mile wide grins and two thumbs up. My own father had a long military career, served in WWII and Korea, then went on to the state department and evetually became a diplomat. As a young man he taught me that the greatest tragedy of war is that it robs us of our respect for human diginity, and that the onyl way to be a true success in such matters is do everything you can to preserve your humanity and reflect this in your conduct.

By advocating torture just because they would have 'done the same to us,' i hardly see how we have a superior mentality to any terrorist. Why are terrorists evil? They don't respect human life and use violence and fear to achieve their goals. Hmmm, now what is torturing another human being, who is held captive and has no way to defend themselves? Once you're off the battle field and you don't have a rifle in your hand, the rules change lads, it's as simple as that. And Stillwantmore, you seem to be a very nice and reasonable person, but the Geneva-blah-blah as you call it, is an achievement of massive importance in the world that dictates much of what we base international law upon. Nobody should pick up a gun before they've thoroughly read history. The torture is an uncalled for show of animal cruelty and ignorance, and does absolutly no good in the world. Stick up for the men that fight bravely for their country on the battlefield, not the ones that idle away their time abusing defenseless human beings for fun.


I dont care.
I been against my AMERICAN BROTHERS on this READ AND FIND my terrorism thread, it will suit you cos I was against the US doing what it did.
Now I dont care and just support our bros and sis, cos the Iraiq peeps will always be bastards fighting us and burning shit.
Ya not see what they did to those INNOCENT people in Iraw months ago?? they came to build there and help the Iraqi people, but they attacked them and BURNT them, finally they HUNG THEM in the street and it was on TV here, I seen it.
We just givin them a SMALL taste back, I mean were just humiliating them.
Iraq will always moan its head off about summut, MHO is FUCK THEM OFF and bring our boys and girls back, let them rot cos I dont give a fuck anymore what happenes to the ugly camels.
What has changed my mind from al the months of being against the war is, the people of Iraq still moan and say its no better and attack us, so fuck them.
There ungrateful bastards, we got rid of saddam and saved a potential bio attack of somekind oneday.
These scenes happen in war, torture ... its life man, if ya cant stand it DONT WATCH.
I myself dont care, I hate those evil Iraqi bastards who keep killin our men than want to live here in the UK, if I arrest any other here as they are here as immagrants, am gunna send my size 12 straight in there teeth.
 
Zurik said:
Now what exactly did Iraq have anything to do with terrorism? I really want to hear this one...

ROFLMAO it was INFESTED with terrorists did ya not know lol where ya been mate, they started blowing themselves up thinkin heaven was cummin lol silly wankers, saddam had old links to Bin Liner in those hills he hides.
PS I find the images of the Iraqi POW's very funny lol great I say, the US soldiers DESERVE A PAY RISE ASAP, I bet bush deep down is fuckin luving it.
 
I think if you were actually ON the battlefield you'd feel a bit differently. The person you just captured was shooting at you and your buddies, trying to kill you. He may have succeeded in blowing a few of your pals to bits. I don't think you're going to treat him with very much respect. I mean, what are they supposed to do? Give them three course meals and make sure they're clean and healthy and presentable? Give me a break.

POWs are tortured. You can't change that. It isn't wrong or right, it's just something that happens.
 
EXACLTY Cyclops, when the Iraqis tortured the Brits and yanks during 1990/91 no one cared cos of who we are, now its the US and UK having some fun, I mean thats what it is .... no ones been shot, just doing to them what they deserve - humiliation, we get called for it, yet if it was on the other foot I beg to differ.
We will never beat terrorism, but we can fight it.
 
Men, women, children...I wouldnt care. Living where they live....the majority of them are bread and raised to hate westerners. If theyre holding a gun, theyre a target.
 
"saddam had old links to Bin Liner in those hills he hides." "it was INFESTED with terrorists did ya not know "

No i did not, and as far as i'm aware neither did anyone...Are you by any chance working for MI6 and CIA or just believing Bush's crap about the "Axis of Evil","The Crusade against Terrorism" and the infamous and unexistant "Weapons of Mass Destruction"?
 
Your from Latvia, a former USSR country ... theres always gunna be tensions and shit like this, I belive WHAT I WANT MATE.
FACT IS, Iraq is .. *ahem* was home to terrorists until us Brits and yanks killed um off.
I say Brits and yanks, but thats ignorant of me ... there were Polish,Aussies,Spanish and Bulgarian, Canadian and a few others.
Why are you soooooooo against the Torture of Iraqi POWs???? cos ya dont like the USA and UK thats probably why.
 
"they came to build there and help the Iraqi people" I do believe you are talking about the oil workers. The only one who is killed or being taken hostage are Americans, Brits and other colonizers. Russians and all the citizens of countries who did not occupy the country are immidietly released.
 
Yep cos the Germans, French and Russians were upto no good with the old Iraq, sellin them alsorts of shit and they were too yellow to fight in this war so The hairy chimps of Iraq release yaz.
Anyways me gettin tired and bored, get doung some pe mate.
 
Zurik said:
"they came to build there and help the Iraqi people" I do believe you are talking about the oil workers. The only one who is killed or being taken hostage are Americans, Brits and other colonizers. Russians and all the citizens of countries who did not occupy the country are immidietly released.

plus, do you think what they did was right.
Burning innocent people like that, I mean if that was a Iraq POW ya would be in tears, but as its US/UK etc ya say we occupy lol nah we dont occupy mate, we keep peace ... look at CYPRUS how calm that is since the UN went in all them years ago, my family come from there.
 
I'm Russian(living in Latvia), but contrary to the popular belief i do not hate U.S or the U.K. You can believe what you want to believe, but don't call your beliefs facts. Iraq was a dictatorship,which conviniently enough was not only in the middle east(uhhhhh terrorism) but also had oil. Russia never had troops in Iraq and Spain if i'm not mistaken already removed theirs. My point is if the U.S did'nt lead such an aggressive politic towards other countries, there wouldn't be a terrorist problem today.
 
"Keep Peace"? You were also supposed to keep peace in Serbia and Afghanistan. What can i see you're doing a great job, haha.
 
"sellin them alsorts of shit "
Final comment for the day- And i wonder who gives the Israeli army all their weapons...
 
mate I know the UK and US is FAR from perfect, I wont stick up for us there.
Our ways of the world is bad.
I am talking about the thread topic, I dont care about them Iraq POW getting messed with, plain and simple.
But I do agree, the US and UK bring alot of this terror stuff on themselves.
 
1. Iraq did not substantially support terrorism, that was never our justification for going over there. It has virtually no association with bin laden, and our own government intelligence has addmitted as much. Going into Iraq was not a strike in the war on terrorism. I might add that Afghanistan, neglected in the wake of Iraq, has returned to warlord rule and recent CIA reports indidcate an increase in terrorist activity in the region.

2. Nobody can tell me or reasonably estimate how I would feel or behave in a combat situation, I CAN tell you that many US troops, military personal, and veterans of foreign wars have already spoken out against the torture and subsequent photographs.

3. This attitude of "oh, torture always happens, deal with it" shows a very limited view of the world, not a realistic one. Should we say things like genocide and bigotry are just fine because they've been around for a long time and are hard to be rid of? Should we be genocidal and attack innocents, just because our enemies do? Is this how the leader and protector of the free world behaves? Again, none of our nation's leaders agree with this, which is why they are in fact leaders. This argument that it's going to happen, regardless, and it's only fair, they would do it to us, is playground level reasoning on a very complicated and trenchant issue, and it demonstrates no respect for the sanctity of life and human rights.

4. Red - you described in a thread how traumatic it was, and how damaging to your life, when you were attacked by a group of drunken youths. Have you no empathy for men made to endure the same thing? True, they were combatants, and you did nothing to provoke your attack, but once captured they were tortured when they had no way to defend or protect themselves, and it was more than just humiliation. They were beaten and threatened, needlessly, for entertainment. Cyclops, may be you can imagine yourself enjoying such sport, but do not assume the same about me.

5. Once again, how arrogant must you be to dismiss these people's lives just because they stand against you. None of you debating this with me would be one bit different if you hadn't been born where you live, and that's a fact. So our lives are worth more? We had the good fortune to be born in liberal open societies with good education and democratic rule, so fuck everybody else that does not have the same advantage? Seeing how easily some of you capitulate to propaganda, I have no doubt that had you been born a poor Iraqi you'd be cruising around with a rusty issue rifle in your palms taking potshots at our soldiers. I'll bet you wouldn't appreciate being attacked by dogs while soldiers stand around laughing and taking pictures. Countries like the UK and the US are the greatest places to live because they are built on a fundamental respect for human life and liberty, those principles inspired the will to freedom that you now enjoy. When you see people hung from a bridge, see it as a tragedy of life, not a strike against your country. This nationalistic, mindlessly patriotic dismissal of the complications of war is what leads to facism, and ultiamately more war and tragedy. Your inability to even consider any of the points I raise indicates that some of you more or less enjoy the celebration of torture, and I'll leave you to that. I am often quick to assume, like my friend Cyclops, that people are similar to me, and so often I assume that they would not take pleasure in the suffering of others. Funny that I still do this.
 
Swank said:
1. Iraq did not substantially support terrorism, that was never our justification for going over there. It has virtually no association with bin laden, and our own government intelligence has addmitted as much. Going into Iraq was not a strike in the war on terrorism. I might add that Afghanistan, neglected in the wake of Iraq, has returned to warlord rule and recent CIA reports indidcate an increase in terrorist activity in the region.

Who cares if they supported terrorism or not? The way Saddam was ruling his country was WRONG, no matter which way you slice it. I have a friend from Iraq that was able to get out several years ago and move to America. His father was a professional boxer in Iraq. One time he lost a big match against someone from another country. Saddam himself ordered my friend's dad to be tortured. They chained him up, and beat him within an inch of his life. After that, they tied him to the back of a truck and drug him down a gravel road. Then after they had done all this, and his flesh was literally in shreds, they threw him in a huge vat of raw sewage. All for losing a boxing match against a foreigner. If Saddam would order that, how do you think he ran the rest of his government? I don't think anyone can say that we shouldn't have gone to war with Iraq. And don't give me "they do things differently over there, that's just their way of it." I don't care how you look at it, it is wrong.

I am often quick to assume, like my friend Cyclops, that people are similar to me, and so often I assume that they would not take pleasure in the suffering of others.

I don't really see where you're coming from. Do you really think you would have mercy on them in battle? I don't mean that you would take pleasure in any of it, but I don't think you would exactly respect them at that point.
 
Cyclops, may be you can imagine yourself enjoying such sport, but do not assume the same about me.

Oh my God. I can't believe you actually think that I would enjoy torturing anybody. You have no clue how much you just insulted me. I never said anything about enjoying anything! I said you wouldn't have any respect for them. Oh my God.

I'm done with this thread.
 
Cyclops - It was incorrect of me to suggest you would enjoy it, that was a barbed comment. However, you do seem to be finding ways to condone and rationalize torture, which, enjoyed or not, I regard without about the same level of contempt. I am not religious person, but I udnerstand that Christians follow the model of Jesus. Would he have simply condoned the actions as unavoidable and advocated them as a fact of war, or would he have deplored them?

Also, you seem to suggest I am arguing against us invading, which we really aren't discussing. I had mixed feelings about the invasion, and in retrospect consider it to be a mistake. Also, remember the dozens of far more brutal dictatorships the US has financially supported and politically bolstered, including Iraq when Sadam was in his heyday of bloodlust. Don't buy into this "we're better off without him, this our job to get rid of people like that" argument without carefully considering history and the politics surrounding teh current war. Have a look at Cambodia, Chile, and so many more. In terms of war, invasion, and mass death, the 'right thing to do' is hardly ever black and white. And once again I might add, that torturing Iraqis levels us with old Sadam quite evenly, and rather explains why they're so violently opposed to our presence right now. A congressional probe is under way to investigate the full extent of abuses, and they are being called abuses.

So far as me having mercy in battle, I would do my duty as a soldier and defend myself and my country, and execute my orders. Would I sick dogs on blindfolded prisoners and pose for pictures? Never. Sympathy for the enemy and respect for human lives is different friend, war is no excuse to toss morality out the window. The situation when you and another are pitted on the battlefield attempting to protect yourselves, and that of golding a prisoner who is at your mercy are different. Anybody that cannot see the distinction boggles me.
 
Swank said:
Cyclops - It was incorrect of me to suggest you would enjoy it, that was a barbed comment. However, you do seem to be finding ways to condone and rationalize torture, which, enjoyed or not, I regard without about the same level of contempt. I am not religious person, but I udnerstand that Christians follow the model of Jesus. Would he have simply condoned the actions as unavoidable and advocated them as a fact of war, or would he have deplored them?

Also, you seem to suggest I am arguing against us invading, which we really aren't discussing. I had mixed feelings about the invasion, and in retrospect consider it to be a mistake. Also, remember the dozens of far more brutal dictatorships the US has financially supported and politically bolstered, including Iraq when Sadam was in his heyday of bloodlust. Don't buy into this "we're better off without him, this our job to get rid of people like that" argument without carefully considering history and the politics surrounding teh current war. Have a look at Cambodia, Chile, and so many more. In terms of war, invasion, and mass death, the 'right thing to do' is hardly ever black and white. And once again I might add, that torturing Iraqis levels us with old Sadam quite evenly, and rather explains why they're so violently opposed to our presence right now. A congressional probe is under way to investigate the full extent of abuses, and they are being called abuses.

So far as me having mercy in battle, I would do my duty as a soldier and defend myself and my country, and execute my orders. Would I sick dogs on blindfolded prisoners and pose for pictures? Never. Sympathy for the enemy and respect for human lives is different friend, war is no excuse to toss morality out the window. The situation when you and another are pitted on the battlefield attempting to protect yourselves, and that of golding a prisoner who is at your mercy are different. Anybody that cannot see the distinction boggles me.

To answer your Jesus question...in the Bible, God sent nations to war. One time he told them to kill every last person, including women and children (who we would say were innocent), and all the livestock. They spared some. God was extremely angry, and if I remember correctly, struck the man in charge down. Dead. So if God would order them to kill all the women and children, do you think he would be ok with torture? Probably.

The comment about whether we should have invaded or not was in reply to someone else's post. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
 
Hmm, well friend, it was my understanding that Jesus tought paciphism, compassion, and tolerance. I'm not one to contradict anybody's interpretation of faith, as it is ultimately subjective, but I believe I could safely say you're in the minority if you believe that some old testament scripture freely advocates massive war and the murder of innocents. There are passages in the old testament that also instruct for human sacrifice as I recall, as well as give proper instructions on how to slaughter a goat to honor the lord. DO serious Christians today practice such things just because it's in the good book? As a person of faith who has examined the bible, you probably know that it is a bit of a copout to pick and choose which portions to interpet literally soley in order to justify certain contemporary opinions. If you think this is an appropriate way to employ your most profound spiritual beliefs, then I suggest you sit down with yourself and have a long think over what those beliefs really are. And if you think that this god really did support the murder of every last woman and child, is this a good thing? Surely you understand the differances between the god of the old testament and the new? Do you take every word of the bible to be literal, or just what suits you? These are all troubling questions.

And, you did not answer my question, which was do you really think Jesus would have condoned such behavior? I don't think I'm out of bounds to suggest that it's probably not God's divine will and satisfaction that we brutally torture and murder one another in wars. Let's not forget the Muslim extremists themselves justify their murderous actions with holy scripture, shall we do the same? The meek shall inherit the earth, not sick their attack dogs on blindfolded prisoners of war for fun.
 
I can't believe that people are condoning torture in this thread.
What's to enjoy?
The Coalition claims to be fighting against the very behaviour that it is itself now perpetuating.....It kind of makes it's own noble intentions sound ridiculous now.

I've noticed that people are also confusing Saddam Hussein and his regime with the Iraqis being tortured/abused by coalition troops.
The vast majority of insurgents are nothing to do with Saddam and the Baath party. So this "eye for an eye",.."doing what they did to us",..makes no sense at all.
Many of the Iraqi prisoners are also civilians.
The prisoners are rounded up and taken in for questioning.
So many of the Iraqi's being tortured could well be innocent bystanders.

Yet some people feel that's okay?
So it would be okay if in the future, some Arab Country's army burst into a house and captured a member of YOUR family and tortured that person?..That would be an eye for an eye too wouldn't it?
That's how flawed and distorted this revenge thing is. It's a never ending cycle.
You can't expect to control people by trying to force them to fear and respect you.
If they retaliate, then maybe it was a stupid way to go about getting respect.

One may think it is okay if these prisoners are tortured,..but in reality,do you think celebrating torture and abuse is going to improve the situation?...Or make it worse?

It would be bad enough torturing prisoners of war,..but the fact is that civilians are being tortured, and from what I heard, probably killed as well.

I really wonder what the hell we're doing there. We don't know what we're doing.
We go in to supposedly "liberate" the Iraqis.
We are suposed to be there for humanitarian reasons.
And how do we do that?..we kill them in their thousands, bomb their houses and Mosques, and torture the people we're "liberating".
Can anyone be surprised if people aren't exactly grateful?...Would you be?

I honestly can't see a legitimite reason for being there now.
The only reason we can be there is for humanitarian reasons.
If it becomes so patently obvious that we couldn't give a rats arse about humanitarian rights and freedom,..then WTF are the Coalition doing there?
What?...What are they actually doing?
If Iraqi lives are cheap to us,....then it's time to get out of there because there's nothing left to do.

The torturing prisoners thing is the last straw. There's no chance that The US and the UK have any credibility left on the world stage now.
The actions shown, are against everything the occupation in Iraq was supposed to be about.
If we don't care about Iraq being free and democratic, and having the same rights that we do, and if we don't care that they are being tortured and killed,....then what exactly is the point of the Coalition being there at all?
What's it's purpose?

If Iraqis are supposed to be so bad that torturing them is fine,....then why are our troops even there?
Saddam's been captured,..time to call it a wrap.

Oh I forgot, they haven't installed a puppet dictator yet have they?
 
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Swank said:
Hmm, well friend, it was my understanding that Jesus tought paciphism, compassion, and tolerance. I'm not one to contradict anybody's interpretation of faith, as it is ultimately subjective, but I believe I could safely say you're in the minority if you believe that some old testament scripture freely advocates massive war and the murder of innocents.

I didn't say that it freely advocates anything. I said simply that God ordered that. So your claim about Jesus is now kinda not relevant.

There are passages in the old testament that also instruct for human sacrifice as I recall, as well as give proper instructions on how to slaughter a goat to honor the lord. DO serious Christians today practice such things just because it's in the good book? As a person of faith who has examined the bible, you probably know that it is a bit of a copout to pick and choose which portions to interpet literally soley in order to justify certain contemporary opinions. If you think this is an appropriate way to employ your most profound spiritual beliefs, then I suggest you sit down with yourself and have a long think over what those beliefs really are. And if you think that this god really did support the murder of every last woman and child, is this a good thing? Surely you understand the differances between the god of the old testament and the new? Do you take every word of the bible to be literal, or just what suits you? These are all troubling questions.

Nowhere in the Bible is there any instruction on human sacrifice. Show me where. But yes, there are verses about animal sacrifice. Verses like that were made null and void after Christ. Kinda like an ammendment to the Bible. Only certain parts of the Old Testament no longer apply.

And, you did not answer my question, which was do you really think Jesus would have condoned such behavior? I don't think I'm out of bounds to suggest that it's probably not God's divine will and satisfaction that we brutally torture and murder one another in wars. Let's not forget the Muslim extremists themselves justify their murderous actions with holy scripture, shall we do the same? The meek shall inherit the earth, not sick their attack dogs on blindfolded prisoners of war for fun.

If it is out of God's will for us to torture and murder each other in wars, then why did He Himself order that people do it a few thousand years ago?

Meek does not mean weak. Meek means, as one wise pastor put it, "knowing when and when not to flex one's muscles."
 
Last time from me, I dont care about what happens to the Iraq POW's ... let um rot, its MHO, big deal I dont agree with you.
Let them all get torutured and shot, they aint innocent they are *supposed* tobe hardened soldiers, saddam always said they were strong lol LMFAO
As for all these vets and peeps from the US/UK saying its bad, cause there gunna say that ... its OUT IN THE OPenis EnlargementN NOW, they HAVE to look into it to SHUT peeps like you up, I dont think Mr Powell,Bush and Co will care about them Iraqi POWs, but they must show they are against what the US troops did, to save face.
I say give them troops a bonus lol god bless them.

Call me all ya want, drag my history into this if ya want i.e when I got attacked ... cos I belive what I belive, let um rot ... they aint innocent, they were and would KILL our soldiers .... this is war, bad things happen .... DEAL WITH IT and dont moan about it.
If Iraq wasnt so fuckin Pre-Historic with its views on life they would never of had to ov been ass wiped by us.
We did the world a favour; the US and UK, by getting saddam out of Iraq, just like we did with Hitler.
Oneday ya'll thank us, we dont fuck about thats our problem and no one likes it.
I agree with a few things however,

#1 why are we there??? I aint a clue, its a joke ... let the Iraqi people rot and get our lads/gals home, enough time has been wasted.
#2 why did we really goto war???? Lots of lies here about that.
#3 Are we really interedted in gettin the country back on its feet??? I dont think we are.....just went after the Oil and saddam, we got that so fuck it.
#4 Is Iraq as bad as Bush and Blair said it was, i.e a World threat??? nah, they probbaly made it all up about the bio weapons, so they could kill some Iraqi soldiers and kick saddams ass, plus do what daddy failed on.
#5 Did we create terrorism in our own countrys, i.e 9/11???? I think so, cos we run into the china shop like a bull, without thinking ... poor management from the gouvernments, if it was thought abouit we could have done a better job and Penis EnlargementRHAPS avoided 9/11 from fuelling arab hatred, yet saying this these peeps, terrorists are just jelous of the western way of life and say we had things easy.

I also reckon we should BAR ALL Iraqi immagrants from coming into the UK cos they cant be trusted IMHO, ya cant trust them.
Fuckin upto summut if ya let um loose here, like those Paki extremeists who build mosqs here and preech terrorism when they supposed to be praying .... bar the fuckers.
 
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I don't get it, who ever gave Bush the right to decide what is a correct way of governing a country?Who gave him the right to overthrow anyone? Saddam was an evil bastard, but he was chosen by his people, and if his people were unsatisfied enough they themselves would get rid of him. That's the way it's been through all of the history. And what the hell do you mean pre-historic? It's a normal pattern for a country to go through an age of prosperity and then to an age of decadence. That happened and will continue happening to the U.S, Britain and every other nation on the face of this planet. Morales is something that we all must respect, or else who knows maybe in a hundred years Arab countries(or China) will be torturing British and U.S prisoners and saying that they don't give a fuck, since they think you have prehistoric views on life. I'm quite surprised REDZULU2003, i've always viewed Brits as good sports.
 
lol give it up mate, I aint gunna change my views.
I agree bush has no right doing what he does in Iraq, bursting in etc but we got Saddam and all this POW shit is normal war stuff .... they DID IT TO US REMEMBER, so we do it to them and its multiplied 1000's of times and made worse.
I dont care, as I say let them Iraqi bad ass'es die.
My views, just like you have yours.
 
If these prisoners who were tortured were ALL guilty,....how come we see some of them walking around free getting interviewed on camera about heir ordeals?

Torturing innocent civilians?
That's what the West keep banging on about. OTHER countries are evil because of their human rights records.

Many innocent Iraqi civilans actually supported the coalition.
Now I wouldn't blame any of them if they didn't trust us anymore.
Why should they?....I don't even trust us.
 
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