Torture...Geneva Conventions...I guess they don't mean anything

[iwant8inches]

http://alternet.org/columnists/story/28154/

This is something I was referring to as well going4nine about how the U.S. is clearly violating the Geneva Conventions. If you value the truth you should probably read my response to some of your nonsense in the white phosphorus thread.

 

[[P]okey[B]ear]

8inches we fucking get it our government is full of shit and they lie. There is no point to making thread after thread of the retardedness going on in the world. If you wanna really help us work on a plan to convince people that raising taxes to give everyone in america health care like in sweeden and pay for all our school and that stuff. Really think about it. IF we paid 50% taxes and you didn't have to pay for your health care, your schooling and other social services you would have more money to spend then you do right now.

 

[iwant8inches]

There's a thought.

It's called spreading awareness. Don't read it if you don't want to and if you get it then you wouldn't be responding by telling me to stop.

I post these for people to discuss if they want to. I discuss these issues on other forums and while some people might not like that I post these kinds of threads at [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words] they can speak up, but most of the time their reasons are because they don't get it or don't care. I'm glad you can see what I see, but these sub forums are here for discussions and debates. The internet is a medium for the exchanging of ideas. I already know how to Penis Enlargement and I don't see too many new ideas being tossed around in the main forum lately anyway so what's the problem with trying to get a discussion going?

 

[going4nine]

First, Molly Ivans is a bitter, dried out old twat who can't seem to stomach the fact that no one of importance gives her heed. Secondly, I told you before that the Geneva Conventions (or the Hague Conventions, for that matter) do NOT apply to either ununiformed combatants, nor combatants without a state sponsor. The enemy we are fighting in Iraq falls into both categories.

As for whether torture works or not, I don't know, and I doubt you do either. So, let's just leave it to the experts in order that they at least have the tool at their disposal if they believe they need it.

 

[going4nine]

Just read your last post in the other thread. As for the tribunals, you are right on that point, and the military is trying to go forward with them, but the prisoners keep filing suit in U.S. federal court which keeps the hearings from proceeding. In any event, do you really think they'd show that they were 1) in uniform and 2) acting as agents of a state?

I'll try and find time to go through your other points later.

 

[[P]okey[B]ear]

8 incher i'm not trying to bash on you beleive me. IT's just you've made like 10 threads like this in last couple weeks it's just they are all over I think you already accomplisheda wareness and are now trying to rub it in.

 

[iwant8inches]

Just read your last post in the other thread. As for the tribunals, you are right on that point, and the military is trying to go forward with them, but the prisoners keep filing suit in U.S. federal court which keeps the hearings from proceeding. In any event, do you really think they'd show that they were 1) in uniform and 2) acting as agents of a state?

I'll try and find time to go through your other points later.

Well, I appreciate that you at least read through it.

Does being held without a charge and subjected to forms of torture sound right to you? These secret detention centers are not good. I think we should let the experts and independent organizations do what they were organized to do and get to the bottom of things.

"The CIA is holding an unknown number of prisoners in secret detention centers abroad. In violation of the Geneva Conventions, it has refused to register those detainees with the International Red Cross or to allow visits by its inspectors. Its prisoners have 'disappeared,' like the victims of some dictatorships." -- The Washington Post.


And Pokey, don't worry I've never taken anyone's words on this forum personally. I'm not affected and I apreciate that you'd refine the meaning of intentions of your post. Don't worry about it. I fail to see how posting the information I post as rubbing it in. I don't take credit for having discovered any of these things first hand or had anything to do with the investigative reporting so I have nothing to gain from posting such content other than perhaps a discussion/exchange of internet discourse if you will.

 

[prince Albert]

8inches we fucking get it our government is full of shit and they lie. There is no point to making thread after thread of the retardedness going on in the world. If you wanna really help us work on a plan to convince people that raising taxes to give everyone in america health care like in sweeden and pay for all our school and that stuff. Really think about it. IF we paid 50% taxes and you didn't have to pay for your health care, your schooling and other social services you would have more money to spend then you do right now.

Pokey we have free healthcare and a good welfare state in the uk but the cost of funding it is a bottomless pit,the waiting lists for hospitals are in some cases years long,the welfare state is abused by many as it offers quite a good standard of living.

The amount of tax we pay is silly,a litre of petrol has just come down to 95p which is about one dollar 65,to fill my car a nissan primera costs me 60 pounds or 104 dollars.

cigs and alcohol are heavily taxed,more than 80% on cigs is tax,the cost of living is very expensive,my family shopping bill this week was 127 pounds or 221 dollars.

Free healthcare and a good social services sound good in theory but in practice they are a big burden for any goverment.

 

[stillwantmore]

As has been semi said here and elsewhere, the Geneva Convention and rules set up therein apply to nations and militaries that actually follow the rules of the Convention. Terrorist and their sponsoring nations/states do not follow the rules, never have most likely never will. I'm all for getting whatever information to possible by ANY means possible if there's the potential that the information could save the lives of Americans, or our allies. If our government has to torture terrorists or people who do not value life, or our way of life so be it. The only way to deal with irrational lunatics is on their level. There's no way to play fair with them.

 

[REDZULU2003]

"The CIA is holding an unknown number of prisoners in secret detention centers abroad. In violation of the Geneva Conventions, it has refused to register those detainees with the International Red Cross or to allow visits by its inspectors. Its prisoners have 'disappeared,' like the victims of some dictatorships." -- The Washington Post

lol and yet the terrorists can chop heads off and hold people hostage and no real scream made for the victims than.

 

[iwant8inches]

There are rules in place for a reason. Does your country or mine follow them? Why or why not? The moment we accept going against these rules and regulations the second we have no room to cry foul for anything done that we might see as evil in our eyes.

Let's say there is a reason these tribunals were not conducted and why the U.S. President Vice President and others attempted to rewrite what constitutes torture. I'd like to know why and I know others would like to know why. I'm sure others around the world condemn the U.S. for it's practices of torture. I'm also certain that there is at least a handful of completely innocent men that have been tortured and in some cases until they met their death and I'm probably being generous on the handful estimate considering the way a good amount of the detainees are and were (especially on the onset of the war in Afghanistan) captured. Considering the urban setting of the conflicts in Iraq and the conditions my cousin described it is at least conceivable by the most outspoken proponents of the Iraq invasion was that some of the detainees were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, say in the street for example. Like I've said the enemy has become so broad a term in Iraq it's scary. Do any of you realize the changes and resistance occurring among the Muslims themselves? (This is something that could have been done minus the huge war from the Christian country no? see Crusades and the beginning of Islam, its original influences, how it was constructed, get a sense of the religion and why it has taken so long for any kind of noticeable change in the strict following...there were other methods by which we could have at least stymied any fundamentalist/extreme militaristic believers of Islam had we really wanted to) Look at what happened in Jordan the other day and who planned it and who was targeted. Then think how it difficult it must be to discern who a car bomb or suicide bomb is for anymore? It's for anyone and everyone when you get down to it. Look at the state of things over there. You can directly attribute it to the original invasion. Nearly everything that is occurring in Iraq is what many top advisors predicted (we should just say projected at this point it's so scarily accurate) before the invasion, but were ignored and fired. This country and its military has to figure out a better way to help the Iraqi government rid themselves of these extremists. (the other scary thing is the potential Islamic/Iranian influenced state of Iraq AFTER all the chaos is stifled) The current route hasn't worked and has made things worse and now utterly contemptuous conduct and policy is being condoned. Does anyone actually have confidence in the leadership HERE in the states? As of right now I no longer have family in Iraq or in Afghanistan and my family is lucky to have none if its 3 Marines killed or injured. How long before "staying the course" is seen as a punisHydromaxent that needs to be remitted?

 

[penguinsfan]

There are rules in place for a reason.

Right. As mentioned, the rules are uniformed soldiers that can be identified, representing a state that provides the guarantees of the Geneva Conventions to those that they themselves capture. Those that the U.S. and its allies fight against, do not meet any of the criteria. This dead horse has been beaten so much I'm amazed you managed to resurrect its carcass for this thread.

 

[iwant8inches]

And you want to skip a crucial procedure which proves to me you really don't understand the implications of what all is happening. Thanks for showing your ignorance.

 

[penguinsfan]

And you want to skip a crucial procedure which proves to me you really don't understand the implications of what all is happening. Thanks for showing your ignorance.

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to. You're calling me "ignorant" when you are clearly ignorant of the Geneva Conventions. You can sit there all day long and say you don't like the way the U.S. is treating its prisoners, as it's your right to do so. But to say there is a violation of Geneva Conventions is inaccurate. And the only place that rubbish is floating around is the Move On/Democratic Underground/Air America circuit. Mainstream America doesn't buy it at all, nor much else put out by those extremists, as evidenced in the last few elections.

 

[iwant8inches]

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to. You're calling me "ignorant" when you are clearly ignorant of the Geneva Conventions. You can sit there all day long and say you don't like the way the U.S. is treating its prisoners, as it's your right to do so. But to say there is a violation of Geneva Conventions is inaccurate. And the only place that rubbish is floating around is the Move On/Democratic Underground/Air America circuit. Mainstream America doesn't buy it at all, nor much else put out by those extremists, as evidenced in the last few elections.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

Tell me exactly what leads you to believe the U.S. is not in violation of regarding article 5 of the Third Geneva Conventions.

Article 5

The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation.

Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.



When it comes to POWs there is no torture allowed at all. There are hundreds of people that have been detained where their rights were violated. Some have died. How many of those were terrorists? How many of those were innocent civilians? Can you tell me? How many instances where the status of a detainee was never determined by a competent tribunal will you need for all this to sink in? I mean the argument for this kind of behavior is laughable. "They don't belong to any official government or state." "They don't have uniforms." You're admitting it is very difficult if at times not possible to discern the enemy from the bystander, yet you ignore article 5 here completely. Are you implying that you are ignoring article 5? You seem to be missing the big picture. You claim to know and understand the Geneva Conventions(or maybe its just GCIII you don't understand), but fail to realize the ramifications that will accompany that kind of treatment. If article 5 is violated and the reported forms of torture are conducted then quite a few articles of the third Geneva Conventions such as article 3,13,17, and 25 have also been violated.

You get picked up on the street, detained, and tortured during interrogations and elsewhere then get back to me. If you're innocent you should be all right, right? No. You'll get treated like a terrorist. Once again there is a reason these rules are there. No one should be tortured. It is not humane in any sense. You can argue about torture and its effectiveness, but you can't argue about the intent of the people that came up with article 5.

The U.S. is engaging in torture with the help of other governments, agencies, and our own CIA. The U.S. President announced to the world that "we don't torture," and he and Cheney want to exempt the CIA from McCain's amendment of the 2006 appropriations bill. From Gitmo to Abu Ghraib to black sites around the globe the U.S. is engaging in egregious acts. Hell, the Republicans are said to have leaked the information pertaining to the black sites to the press according to Trent Lott. I am against torture as a means of obtaining intelligence from detainees especially those who's status has yet to be even determined. I mention these black sites to give an overall sense of what is wished to be achieved and by what means. I want the terrorists to be stopped and killed if they are known terrorists, but to go about this in the manner that it has been done with so many unknowns about actual involvement with terrorist organizations how can any of us purposely turn a blind eye and condone torture? I mean even if you believe nothing is being done wrong, which I cannot see how anyone can, but even if you do ask yourself if you'd most likely do or say anything so as not to be killed by a firing squad? I suppose you'd be okay with it after you pissed and deficated on yourself, correct? Afterall afterward you'll find out that the bullets were blanks, so that makes it ok. I suppose after being tortured and released it'd be ok because it's all for a good cause? Get out of here with that crap. When it comes to the issues in this post Iraqi civilians or any innocent civilians are entitled to the same rights as any other around the globe.

Not so long ago the CIA’s National Intelligence Council came out with a report that Iraq is the new training ground for terrorism. It’s a breeding ground for Islamic terrorists. Can you come up with a few possible reasons for this? I could come up with a few myself and at least one of them would have to do with torture and the violations of the Third Geneva Conventions.


Here are a number of accounts of abuse/torture, wrongfully detained people and other informative relevant articles:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/04/terror/main671682.shtml
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/attacks/story/0,1320,1275592,00.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/25/terror/main669025.shtml
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10020629/site/newsweek/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644_2.html
http://portal.tds.net/news.php?story=65835
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1117/p12s01-woiq.html

There are too many reasons why torture is considered an ineffective means of obtaining information. I guess everyone has lost their mind and it isn't just the Extreme Left Wingers/Liberals/insert generic and pointless label here and that is at least discussing and questioning the subject of torture and the United States role with such practices.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/14/opinion/14blochemarks.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

It's time for all the self-serving and self interested to open their eyes and realize what is happening, how our country is perceived abroad and why, and understand just how the decisions on such issues as accepting and practicing torture are going to steer this country. What is happening is indelible. It's wrong morally and lawfully.