Question about the religious hindrance of foreskin

A

AlloyCG

0
So I was talking to my girlfriend the other day, and I said "If we ever have a son, I'm not getting him circumcized." Her - "Excuse me, yes we are." I proceeded to explain to her the properties of the foreskin, the reason for it, the lack of evidence for cleanliness problems, etc. My main argument - I'm not going to mutilate my son without his prior knowledge and consent. If he wants to get that done later in life, I'd be happy to take him and his penis to the surgeon and get him cut.

We have religious differences. The conversation went something like this...

Her - "Well I'm not going to get him circumcized for religious reasons. It says not to in the Bible."
Me - "So you can't get into Heaven without foreskin?"
Her - "NO, God quit being a dick. You always do this. It just says it, OK?"
Me - "What does it say exactly? And do you not think it should be his choice?"
Her - "Look it says it in there. I don't know what or where, but I know it does. Quit trying to piss me off."
Me - "If God didn't want him to have his foreskin, why would he put in on there?"
Her - "I'm going home."

Does anyone in here have any idea to what she could be referencing? I'm about to Google it up, but what are YOUR preconcieved notions about the religious issues of foreskin?
 
For reference...

God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you; Every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. Throughout your generations every male among you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with money from any foreigner who is not your offspring. He that is born in your house, and he that is bought with your money both must be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
Genesis 17: 9 to 14

Uh oh...
 
Other related biblical resources... take from

http://latter-rain.com/theology/circum.htm

Lots of good religious discussion on circumcision here.

Circumcision described:
Gen 17:11; Ex 4:25

Enforced by the law:
Lev 12:3; Jn 7:22

CALLED THE
Covenant of circumcision:
Acts 7:8

Circumcision in the flesh:
Eph 2:11

Concision:
Phil 3:2

A painful and bloody rite:
Ex 4:26; Josh 5:8

Promises to Abraham previous to:
Rom 4:9,13

A seal of the covenant:
Gen 17:11; Rom 4:11

Introductory Jewish ordinances:
Gal 5:3

Outward sign of:
Rom 2:28

Inward grace:
Rom 2:29

Necessary to enjoying the privileges of the Jewish State:
Ex 12:48; Ezek 44:7

WAS Penis EnlargementRFORMED:
On males home-born and bought
Gen 17:12,13

On the eighth day:
Gen 17:12; Lev 12:3

Even on the sabbath day:
Jn 7:22,23

With knives of flint:
Ex 4:25; Josh 5:3

By the heads of families:
Gen 17:23; Ex 4:25

By persons in authority:
Josh 5:3

In the presence of the family:
Lk 1:58-61

Accompanied with naming the child:
Gen 21:3,4; Lk 1:59; 2:21

First performed on Abraham and his family:
Gen 17:24-27

Not performed in the wilderness:
Josh 5:5

Performed by Joshua at Gilgal:
Josh 5:2,7

PunisHydromaxent for neglecting:
Gen 17:14; Ex 4:24,26

Without faith, vain:
Rom 3:30; Gal 5:6

Without obedience, vain:
Rom 2:25; 1Cor 7:19

THE JEWS
Denominated by:
Acts 10:45; Gal 2:9

Held it unlawful to intermarry with those not of the:
Gen 34:14; Jud 14:3

Held no intercourse with those not of the:
Acts 10:28; 11:3; Gal 2:12

Despised as unclean those not of the:
1Sam 14:6; 17:26; Mt 15:26,27; Eph 2:11,15

Sometimes performed on slain enemies:
1Sam 18:25-27; 2Sam 3:14

Abolished by the gospel:
Eph 2:11,15; Col 3:11

Performed on Timothy as a matter or expediency because of the Jews:
Acts 16:3

Necessity of, denied by Paul:
Gal 2:3-5

Necessity of, asserted by false teachers:
Acts 15:24; Gal 6:12; Ti 1:10

Trusting to, a denial of Christ:
Gal 3:3,4; 5:3,4

Paul denounced for opposing:
Acts 21:21

Saints the true spiritual:
Phil 3:3; Col 2:11

ILLUSTRATIVE OF
Readiness to hear and obey:
Jer 6:10

Purity of heart:
Dt 10:16; 30:6

Purity of speech:
Ex 6:12

Institution of:
Gen 17:10-14; Lev 12:3; Jn 7:22; Acts 7:8; Rom 4:11

A seal of righteousness:
Rom 2:25-29; 4:11

Performed on all males on the eighth day:
Gen 17:12,13; Lev 12:3; Phil 3:5

Rite of, observed on the Sabbath:
Jn 7:23

A prerequisite of the privileges of the passover:
Ex 12:48

Child named at the time of:
Gen 21:3,4; Lk 1:59; 2:21

Neglect of, punished:
Gen 17:14; Ex 4:24

Neglected:
Josh 5:7

Covenant promises of:
Gen 17:4-14; Acts 7:8; Rom 3:1; 4:11; 9:7-13; Gal 5:3

Necessity of, falsely taught by Judaizing Christians:
Acts 15:1

Paul's argument against the continuance of:
Rom 2:25,28; Gal 6:13

Characterized by Paul as a yoke:
Acts 15:10

Abrogated:
Acts 15:5-29; Rom 3:30; 4:9-11; 1Cor 7:18,19; Gal 2:3,4; 5:2-11; 6:12; Eph 2:11,15; Col 2:11; 3:11

INSTANCES OF:
Abraham
Gen 17:23-27; 21:3,4

Shechemites:
Gen 34:24

Moses:
Ex 4:25

Israelites at Gilgal:
Josh 5:2-9

John the Baptist:
Lk 1:59

Jesus:
Lk 2:21

Paul:
Phil 3:5

Timothy:
Acts 16:3

FIGURATIVE:
Ex 6:12; Dt 10:16; 30:6; Jer 4:4; 6:10; 9:26; Rom 2:28,29; 15:8; Phil 3:3; Col 2:11; 3:11

A designation of the Jews:
Acts 10:45; 11:2; Gal 2:9; Eph 2:11; Col 4:11; Ti 1:10

A designation of Christians:
Phil 3:3
 
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In the Old Testament, circumcision was a sign of a covenant with God. By becoming circumcised, you were, in effect, agreeing to be saved by your works (Jewish Laws), and not by grace. Fortunately, for those of us who were circed against our will, or as a baby, that does not apply to us. When Christ came, we were given the option to be saved by Grace. After Christ's ultimate act of contrition for mankind, we no longer needed to make ritual blood sacrifices, circumcision, etc. etc. etc. to be absolved of our sins. In fact, the Apostle Paul spoke out against circumcision and circumcisers quite vehemently in the New Testament. Christ's sacrifice insured that we could be forgiven for our sins and make it to Heaven without killing little baby lambs or cutting off peices of our penis. Since it was no longer necessary, I guess Paul figured, why should we have to mutilate ourselves?
 
Unfortunately, the final decision is hers. In the United States, the father has no say in the circ status of the male child. Just another thing that desperately needs to change! If you feel passionately about it-- and you should-- you need to let her know how important it is. Make sure she sees some anti-circumcision websites...and if all else fails, get her to watch a video online of a baby being circumcised. You should be able to find it easily on one of the anti-circ websites. It made my wife cry. It was so horrible that she changed her whole concept of circumcision (as a "painless" procedure)instantly. She couldn't believe she did that to her own sons for no reason. She's very anti-circ, by the way. Just as passionate about it as I am.
 
That's just the thing. Religious circumcision is not a part of Christianity, even though it is included in the Christian Bible. It was a Jewish law though. Part of their covenant with God. But with the crucifixion of Christ a new covenant was made and the old covenant is no longer applicable. The issue with the early Christians with circumcision was "since Christianity comes from Judaism, should Gentile converts be required to get circumcised?" A lot of people were very reluctant to convert because they didn't want to get their foreskins amputated (with good reason!). Paul's answer was no, that circumcision represents the old way. Christians are "circumcised in the Spirit" as he put it, and we need no outward sign of this.
 
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9cyclops9 said:
That's just the thing. Religious circumcision is not a part of Christianity, even though it is included in the Christian Bible. It was a Jewish law though. Part of their covenant with God. But with the crucifixion of Christ a new covenant was made and the old covenant is no longer applicable. The issue with the early Christians with circumcision was "since Christianity comes from Judaism, should Gentile converts be required to get circumcised?" A lot of people were very reluctant to convert because they didn't want to get their foreskins amputated (with good reason!). Paul's answer was no, that circumcision represents the old way. Christians are "circumcised in the Spirit" as he put it, and we need no outward sign of this.
Click to expand...

Exactly. If you check out that link I put in the second post I believe, it goes into discussion about the history of circumcision. Very interesting.

Good input, by the way.
 
kong1971 said:
Unfortunately, the final decision is hers. In the United States, the father has no say in the circ status of the male child.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was talking to an OB-GYN, arguing about circumcision as a matter of fact. She tried to embarass me, for denouncing circumcision, in front of my colleagues... anyhow her final words were "Well maybe being uncircumcised worked out for YOU. And it's going to be your wife's choice, not yours. Deal with it." I'm circumcised.

It's one of those funny conundrums. It's lame that a mother should have 100% of the say, though a reasonable solution is difficult to come up with.
 
AlloyCG said:
anyhow her final words were "Well maybe being uncircumcised worked out for YOU. And it's going to be your wife's choice, not yours. Deal with it."
Click to expand...

Dude I would have smacked her right then. Pulling that girl power BS. And what happened to the couple coming to some sort of agreement? That "it's your wife choice" is total crap. It's the mother's name on the paper, but this feminazi thinks it's solely the mother's choice? Man...I would have gone off on her like a cannon. It's really sad when "women's rights" has gone so far that they think their husbands don't have a say in certain things about their child, especially things the husband would know more about, like circumcision. I would like to go into my whole soapbox thing about feminism but I won't because I'm in Florida and I'm relaxing because I'm home with my fiance after not seeing her for 3 months. I don't want to get too worked up. ;)
 
Yeah, and trying to embarass me by ACCUSING me of having foreskin. It's unfortunate. It reminds me of being at camp when I was a kid, a friend of mine told me he was uncut and almost crying about it. Is it so taboo?

Man, talk about the ultimate right of females. Having the power to mutilate our penises at birth...
 
AlloyCG said:
For reference...

God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you; Every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. Throughout your generations every male among you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with money from any foreigner who is not your offspring. He that is born in your house, and he that is bought with your money both must be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
Genesis 17: 9 to 14

Uh oh...
Click to expand...

Does it say anywhere in there that people shouldn't have slaves?
 
AlloyCG said:
"Well maybe being uncircumcised worked out for YOU. And it's going to be your wife's choice, not yours. Deal with it."
Click to expand...
Argh! >:( I cannot believe there are feminazis like this. If I met one that was talking about circumcising men, I'd have to tell her "If you like circumcision so much, why don't you get one!"
 
While I do not accept the majority of the benefits being claimed as a result of foreskins and FR, I do think it is bullshit that the woman gets all the say in it. It should be something that is discussed between the man and woman in my humble opinion.
 
It is good to see the blinders coming off the eyes of some of you. I can sympathize with that first look around at the real world. You're going to have a "What the fuck? That ain't right!" feeling. Alot of anger. It gets better. As you get used to the new idea that we, as men, got fucked pretty hard by all this, you should be able to channel that energy into something useful...foreskin restoration, reaching out to other men and spreading the word...Good luck.

PS-- The reason women get all the say in circumcision is because 1) they don't know dick about dicks :D and 2) if the choice was left rightly to the fathers, there is bound to be quite a few who would wonder, "Hmmm...what exactly is circumcision and why should it be done?" That, ladies and gentlemen, would be bad for business.

Business, you say?

Do the math: 1.2 million circumcisions a year X $300 a pop. That's around $360,000,000 That's alot of moolah!~
 
AlloyCG said:
...
Her - "Well I'm not going to get him circumcized for religious reasons. It says not to in the Bible."
...

Does anyone in here have any idea to what she could be referencing? I'm about to Google it up, but what are YOUR preconcieved notions about the religious issues of foreskin?
Click to expand...

She's referring to the way the Early Church dealt with what is called the "Judaizer Heresy", where some believers like Peter thought converts to Christianity (who were not Jewish first) had to be circumcized and do other Jewish things in order to be saved, which of course is B.S. Read Galatians 2 and Acts 11. Paul was against forcing non-Jews to be circumcized, which spared Timothy's foreskin for one thing.

Hope that helps.

BG
 
Actually Timothy was circumsized before he went out with Paul. I was reading on that today. Paul's stance was not anti-circumsion/mutilation, but he was pointing to the law and saying this is not necessary anymore. He discusses the law as an identifier of sin, but yet through Christ we are dead to sin as well as to the Law. So he was simply speaking in terms of the law as it was required for the sons and daughters of Abraham to be circumsized by law. I find it very interesting that some Western churches feel it necessary to have in their doctrine that circumsision is a mandate to get into Heaven. Yet, Christ said if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that I am Lord you shall be saved. Anything about circumsision??? People are so ignorant about what they believe in and simply go with what they are told. Ohhh I want eight, Anything about not owning slaves....ummm the Jews were enslaved by the egyptians for a few hundred years till Moses came along as their deliverer. Then they continually were in and out of slavery because they wouold turn from God, and begin worshipping the Baals, and then once the subjugation got to be too much they called upon the Lord and were delivered. That's what the book of Judges is all about. Anyway, God is good....have a great weekend fellas...
 
The whole point of this thread is whether it says in the bible whether or not you HAVE to be circumcised to get to heaven.

THE ANSWER IS NO!!!

I'm sorry, alloy, but your GF needs to be brought down a peg or two. Does she always tell you to shut up and threaten to leave when you don't agree with her? And the OB-GYN ought to have her clitoris removed. Then she wouldn't be so quick to promote male mutilation!
 
From reading through this thread and others it seems so strange that circumcision is considered such a normal thing to do to a baby boy in the states,all the circumcisions ive heard of hear in the U.K have been done for medical reasons and never on babys.

last week one of my workmates was telling everyone in the rest area how his 8 yr old son was going to be circumcised because of a tight foreskin,there are 20 lads in our rest area and we were all joking saying the same sort of things,poor kid fancy loosing his nob skin,fuck me that must hurt,you can imagine the sort of thing with a room full of blokes.
 
Same here albert, only for medical reasons or if your a muslim or a jew.
Nobody really cares here if your cut or not, they dont see anything wrong with it.

If my wife wants my son to be cut, I'd say ok, because I dont see anything wrong in that. It's more clean that way and no worries about to thight foreskin later. And I also thinks that the womans word weigh the most in those cases.
 
GhosT_DoGG said:
Same here albert, only for medical reasons or if your a muslim or a jew.
Nobody really cares here if your cut or not, they dont see anything wrong with it.

If my wife wants my son to be cut, I'd say ok, because I dont see anything wrong in that. It's more clean that way and no worries about to thight foreskin later. And I also thinks that the womans word weigh the most in those cases.
Click to expand...

Don't be ignorant. It is wrong. It is not cleaner. You have as much of a chance of have tight circumcision problems as tight foreskin problems. I am not trying to be offensive, you just need to learn more about it because it is important.
 
Actually her using religion has no merit. While I do believe in circumcision it is plain that in a christian home the man is head of the house. It says that the wife is to suBathmateit to the husband in all things. It actually also says that the man is to woman as jesus is to the church. Your girlfriend is probably like most and really doesn't have a clue what the Bible really says. People are brought up with many pre concieved notions that cannot be backed up by scripture but since they have heard them all their lives they believe them to be true. I honestly don't know everything the Bible says about circumcision because I haven't studied it. I do know that a man is to love his wife as God loves the church and every decision he makes should be for her and his families best interest.
 
kong1971 said:
Ghost Dogg, you are a pussy whipped fool.
Click to expand...
Nope, I just make women have more to say about things. The man doesnt decide everything, but it takes two to make an decition.

I should be christian but I have never read a single bible, been to church only 5-6 times. And those times was because I was made. I believe in other things, that there is a god but we dont know if it are a male or a female. Just in the form of a ghost. That watches us, but does not have any powers, just the eyes to watch with.

Doe, I have never ever heard of it saying in no bible or christian words, that christians should be circumsized. Only religions that ive seen that is Judaism and Islam. So your girlfriend must not know what she is talking about?

Best thing would be to make it when the boy can make up his own mind, how he wants it. Or if medical reasons. If you are a christian that is, if your muslim or jew, Then it's pretty much nessesary.
 
millionman said:
Actually Timothy was circumsized before he went out with Paul. I was reading on that today. Paul's stance was not anti-circumsion/mutilation, but he was pointing to the law and saying this is not necessary anymore. He discusses the law as an identifier of sin, but yet through Christ we are dead to sin as well as to the Law. So he was simply speaking in terms of the law as it was required for the sons and daughters of Abraham to be circumsized by law. I find it very interesting that some Western churches feel it necessary to have in their doctrine that circumsision is a mandate to get into Heaven. Yet, Christ said if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that I am Lord you shall be saved. Anything about circumsision??? People are so ignorant about what they believe in and simply go with what they are told. Ohhh I want eight, Anything about not owning slaves....ummm the Jews were enslaved by the egyptians for a few hundred years till Moses came along as their deliverer. Then they continually were in and out of slavery because they wouold turn from God, and begin worshipping the Baals, and then once the subjugation got to be too much they called upon the Lord and were delivered. That's what the book of Judges is all about. Anyway, God is good....have a great weekend fellas...
Click to expand...


It's a good thing it did considering what kind of people founded this country. I always found that a little befuddling.
 
Cool, I was hoping the intelligent posters would chime in, and thankfully they did.

I was scrolling down waiting for the "Religion is to control people. Its bogus, see how controlling it is." and other such mantras... Thank God someone pointed out the old and new covenant before some idiot joined in with those silly ignorant catch phrases...

Just to play devil's advocate, if the mother AND father decides on foreskin, would it not, by the same logic, be reasonable to assume they would both decide in the case of an abortion. A matter of fact... incoming new thread on the hilarity of child support, abortion, etc :)
 
I believe that most people who do not believe in God just want to think they are free of personal accountability for their actions. No God = no sin = I can do whatever I want.

If there is no God and no sin and we are all just meat, why then do we feel guilt for our misdeeds?

And before Ghost chimes in, saying God is a powerless ghost is the same thing as saying he doesn't exist.

Atheism is just a sign of immaturity.

Grow up. Take some responsibility, kids. You are accountable for your lives.
 
Kong i'm an atheist i'm not immature,33 years old 3rd child on the way,i take care of my family,i teach my kids right from wrong,i do take responsibility for my action's.

If god isn't a powerless ghost then why didn't he do something to stop 160 000 people dying in the tsunami disaster.
 
I got this one. The reason he didn't stop the tsunami's is because he chose not to just as he has chosen in the past not to stop other natural disasters. Why God chose his plan of action or non-action is not for us to understand. We are to have faith in trying times and stand firm in that faith. If you are really an atheist I'm sure you don't understand this because you don't believe in a higher being or Lord. Thing is if I am a believer and I'm wrong in my belief I'm just dead but if you are a atheist and you are wrong in your non belief then you are screwed. Not only you but your whole family if you have influenced them with your non belief. Just something to think about.
 
Here is something that may be hard for you to understand, Prince Albert, but God is not Superman. He is not the Great Cosmic Babysitter. He doesn't fly around saving people from disasters.

He is the first Sentient Being in the infinite universe. He was the only Sentient Being in the universe.

Out of loneliness, he created the angels. He created them whole and complete to keep Him company and love Him. Because He wanted to be truly loved, He gave them free will. Within moments, there was a battle for Surpemacy in Heaven and roughly half of them fell from grace. He gave them everything, made them perfect, and like spoiled and ungrateful children, they rebeled against Him.

So he made us.

He didn't give us perfect, immortal bodies. He didn't give us salvation. He didn't give us anything he gave the angels, except sentient minds and free will. Whether we live out our lives as animal meat or strive to become something more, something infinite, is up to us.

I think I have come to understand God a little better after becoming a father. You see, when you give your kids anything material they desire, they grow up spoiled and despise you. When you give them unconditional love and only the things that they need, they will respect you.

God gives us the knowledge to grow spiritually and supplies our needs for survival, but He is not there to save us from stubbing our toes or making mistakes. Without pain, how can we understand pleasure? Without want, how can we understand satisfaction? Finally, without death, how can we appreciate His greatest gift of all...immortality?

You say you are not immature, but your very question is a child's question.

"Daddy, why can't you fix it?"

To which, a wise father says, "If I fix everything for you, you will never know how to fix it yourself. Instead, I will show you what to do for yourself."
 
55chevy my wife is a very spiritual person and believes in God,i don't influence my children with my opinion,they can make there minds up wether to beleve or not as they grow older.

Kong you say its a childish question,yet the arch bishop of canterbury here in the uk was quoted in one of the newspapers saying the exact same thing as me,now if one of the most religious men in the uk is having a hard time dealing with this then surely you can understand my feelings as a nonbeliever.

I do not have a problem with anyone who believes in god in whatever shape or form,but please don't use a condescend tone to tell me as a nonbeliever that i don't have any morals i'm not responsible for my actions,i don't no right from wrong ect.
 
Wow...look at where this thread went. I am kind of middle of the road on this one.
I consider myself to be an agnostic. Here's a question to think about. Ask Moses' Pharoh
about "freewill" and how many times "God hardened his heart". Had God not "hardened his heart" maybe he would have let the jews go much earlier. Maybe after the first plagu instead of God power tripping to get in all ten.
 
God isnt here to prevent natural disatsers. Natural disasters are needed in the world, things such as a tsunami is needed to keep the population down. It sounds heartless but it is fact. It's nature.
I shall give another example, In London there was a case of the bubonic plague. This was caused by Rats and was killing lots of people, what Killed the rats and eliminated the plague?
The Great Fire Of London.
I think Kong explained all there is to explain in his previous post about why he doesnt come down to save people, when things happen, great post that was Kong.
 
Well i'm in a very small minority seen as this is an american forum and aprox 90-95% of american's believe in some sort of God.

Can any of you answer this question. Why do you believe in God and do you believe in other Gods or just your own?
 
Im behind you to 110% prince_Albert!

And kong why do you neglect people who don't believe in the same god, or is a non believer?

If I believe in Allah, then let me.
If I believe in JHWH(HaShem), then let me.
If I believe in Satan, then let me.
If I believe in Buddah, then let me.

In my perspective, you seem brainwashed, you are so convinced there really is a god.
And in you perspective, you probably think I am brainwashed.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.
 
I am not a typical American Christian in that I believe every word in the Bible or what the pastor might say on a Sunday morning sermon. I believe that churches in America are just businesses selling After-life Insurance, so I don't attend. I believe that prayer and study and thinking for yourself are the only ways to go.

I was raised in a secular, almost atheist home. I came to my beliefs after a long, hard period of dabbling in all kinds of faiths and cults and philosophies. I began to believe more and more in Christ because his teachings are not only practical, but enlightened...exactly the things that I think an Incarnate God would teach.

Do I take the Bible literal?

Nope

But don't claim to be enlightened and mature when you can't even figure out why a just God wouldn't save people from a disaster. That's childish. That's like stomping your foot and crying, "I AM mature! I AM I AM I AM!"
 
kong1971 said:
But don't claim to be enlightened and mature when you can't even figure out why a just God wouldn't save people from a disaster. That's childish. That's like stomping your foot and crying, "I AM mature! I AM I AM I AM!"
Click to expand...

Kong i don't claim to be enlightened and i wasn't stomping my foot.
 
Atheism is just as much a blind faith as Christianity. Perhaps, more so. At least we have historical evidence and miracles. What does an atheist have to back him up? Not being a smart-ass. Just wondering.
 
How come, that in the biggest religions Christianity and Islam demands money, To even be a member?

Christianity, you give money to the collect or to the church.

Islam, there you should give 5-10% of the salery to be a true Muslim, and to be able to go to a moske.

Its pretty shitty really, I have only been in a moske and church, so I cannot say anything about Judaism.

If one scrap of it all, money is whats still are left. Don't get it really... Hydromaxm.

Yeah Kong its pretty childish claiming someone(god) to save others, people save other people. All I ment was that god seem pretty powerless, because it can only sit and watch how the world turns really.
 
kong i have a lot of time for you as you come across as a genuine bloke and a lot of what you say i agree with but the comments you made in the post i first replied to did piss me off because as i no in my case they are not true,anyway these arn't my words but they pretty much sum up the reasons that i don't believe.

Quote.

I don't think I'm blind. I'm not denying God. I just don't see any evidence for His existence, and so don't feel obliged to believe in Him, least of all in His supposedly appointed human messengers on Earth. I don't see any reason to believe in an entity whom I can't see, or hear, or touch, or feel in any way. I'm told God is love by people who have ruthlessly killed other people. I'm told God is wise by people who know nothing and pretend to know more than anyone else what is right and wrong. I'm told God is just by people who commit injustice in His name. Why would I believe in them, and in the God they picture?

This is ad hominem, you will say, and you'll be right -- the actions of men have nothing to do with their hypothetical God. But it's certainly difficult to believe that there is a supernatural force of love, wisdom and justice, when many who claim to have It on their side are bigots, full of hate, and disrespectful of the laws they themselves have made or claim to have received from God.
 
For me God is real...being a biology major is very relative to this, also being interested in philosophy plays a role in this as well. Within the structure of science there are attempts at explaining how and why we are the way we are. Theories that are taught as fact, which in essence is false representation and misleading to the people who are being taught such things as truth and has no true support. Within philosophy there are attempts made at expalining the nature of man, god, and everything else included within a thought or feeling. God is in the details. Science can't explain DNA, individual finger prints, retinal patterns, or the existence of flagela. In philosophy they can not explain why we have a need to explain why we exist or if there is a god. What is it that needs to be explained or understood, which is so deeply engrained in us. That is our need for God, and to have relationship with Him. IN regards to all this, the Lord is in the details. He's in the big things, but it's the little things that He shows up and does amazing things. Christ came into the world so that we may know the Father intimately, not to condemn the world of it's sin or to damn us all. He came to set us free. There is no other explanation outside of God that would permit anyone to rationalize our creation or to prove the need for existence. As many biology professors seem to feel that life evolved from a single celled organism. Yet, a single celled organism whose energy needs were met and it's functions could be carried out, then why would it evolve??? It wouldn't, according to the Laws of Thermodynamics it would not have the need to evolve. At the same time matter just does not come into existence, it has to have previously existed, yet there are objects and planets in space that are in different orbits, meaning they move in the opposite direction of everything in our solar system. This is inconceivable and inexplicable. The reason being is the outward motion/movement of the big bang would have left all objects moving according to the same pattern. My point is to say that if you truly want to seek out the Truth and come to the conclusion that no god exists then that's fine, it's up to you. But in all reality that is a deception, as the truth only points one direction.
 
Prince Albert, again you are talking to a very difficult subject. I realize these injustices go on, and I stand against them. You, as an individual can see these things and understant them. You can not however pass judgement on them, simpy because you can not see their heart, only God can. I'm not advocating their positions, but yet the Word says we will know His children by the fruit they bear. In Paul's letter to the Thessalonians chapters four and five he speaks of those who are asleep in Christ, and that they too are children of God yet are distant from Him. So the people you are speaking of may simply be mislead or decived into claiming representation of the Lord. As we know all the gifts of the spirit to be compassion, love, gentleness, prophecy, tongues, discernment of tongues, and discernment of spirits. Are they representing these gifts or no??? These are the questions we must ask as believers as that we may support each other in the body of Christ. Honestly, as opposed to simply sitting back and resting in judgement and deciding God can't be real because of this this and this, why not read what the Bible has to say as well as to investigate these issues further. It is easy for me to proclaim that I am right and you are wrong, but is that the truth. People love to place themselves on pedestals and look down at others, especially if they are different (racially, theologically, socially). Chirst was advocating equality in the Lord. That no one would claim to be above any other, as we are all joint heirs to the Throne. Does the western church represent the Lord, in some ways absolutely not, but in others yes. Paul said it was better for a false gospel to be shared, than no gospel at all. As long as the people of the world have eyes to see and ears to hear, then let them.
 
I can't tell you exactly why I believe in God. The answer would probably take a lot more typing than I really want to do. Like I have said beore, everybody has their own opinions. Kong said he doesn't take the Bible literal and that he doesn't believe everything in it. That is his choice. I on the other hand believe every word in the Bible. I do not believe everything that just any pastor says because I really think some of them are as screwed up as anyone could be. But I'm not going to say I don't believe any pastors either. My belief is that Jesus is Lord and the Bible says that the only way to God is through the Son. I don't think that Budda or Allah or any other god is real. I think they are false Gods and that is discussed in the Bible also. I think that if everyone will just step back and think about it real hard they can come up with an instance that they saw something seemingly impossible happen. Was it just blind luck or devine intervention. Like I said before, everybody has their own opinion on this but I know what I believe.
 
Wow I gotta chime in.

God lets bad things happen because FREE WILL. He allowed free will into the world, man chose evil, and thus we were scorned with our own iniquity in the form of many things. Natural disasters, disease, hate, etc...

On pharoh. When you hear the word of God, either 2 things happen. You harden your heart and become less likely to accept it next time, or you do accept it.

If you look around many atheists are former "Christians" or had some upbringing in faith of some sort, yet they never accepted it, thus there astrangement (sp?) to it.

How come, that in the biggest religions Christianity and Islam demands money, To even be a member?

Christianity, you give money to the collect or to the church.

Islam, there you should give 5-10% of the salery to be a true Muslim, and to be able to go to a moske.

Its pretty shitty really, I have only been in a moske and church, so I cannot say anything about Judaism.

If one scrap of it all, money is whats still are left. Don't get it really... Hydromaxm.

Yeah Kong its pretty childish claiming someone(god) to save others, people save other people. All I ment was that god seem pretty powerless, because it can only sit and watch how the world turns really.
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LOL, you are too funny man. You must pay to be a member eh? Like dues to a club or association or sorts? What kind of Church did you ever attend? No contemporary non-denomination (not baptist, protestant etc), will do such a thing, and if they are do they are false and not in the truth. At my local church and the one I attend in Riverside (harvest.org is their site), one of the top/biggest Churches in california, send a collection around once, but they ask newcomers not to donate.

If God interfered with the world constantly saving people from death there would be no free will, and that would make our existence pointless to Him AND us.

BTW, did you notice it hit an area where Christianity is very strongly constricted by the government and Islam is prominent... interesting...

But it's certainly difficult to believe that there is a supernatural force of love, wisdom and justice, when many who claim to have It on their side are bigots, full of hate, and disrespectful of the laws they themselves have made or claim to have received from God.
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Many? That is a baseless opinion, Id even say a lie. I actually live in Christian community, and Id say people that are truly hateful etc are very very very in the minority in the congregation, many not even apart of the congregation itself.

BTW, what have atheists ever done. I love how Atheists will bicker about the imperialistic stance of Christianity, to change the world and conquer it, synonomous with the US. They cite the crusades and the 'fact' that Christians are so 'overbearing and propagating' in their faith.

It is funny to note, 3 major atheists in history, known genocydists Mao Ze Dung (China), Pot Pol (Cambodia), Hitler (Germany). Was Stalin an atheist? I forget.

Now THAT is 'overbearing and propagating', where the government is forcing their 'religion' on others. Just had that on my mind .... ok done :)
 
Read Matthew 24 6-8. Christ proclaimed that earthquakes would happen in divers(many) places before the end of time.

If I promise my kids that I am going to do something (whether good or bad , whether punisHydromaxent or reward' or whatever the case) and I do not keep my promise then...
1. I lose face with my kids
2. I have lied to my kids
3. I have disappointed my kids who trusted me.

The Bible promised that these things were going to happen and if they do not then God could not be trusted and the Bible WOULD then be a lie.

As awful as it was and is the fact remains that 1000's were in fact warned that the wave was coming but they CHOSE to not heed the warning. HAd they just moved inland a mile many would have been saved from the disaster. Is God to blame for mans stubbornness?

My words are not intended to offend the atheist on this board or anyone else, but it seems that we try too hard to make God the scapegoat for everything bad that happens.
 
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