New Orleans

[goinfor11x7]

If the people of New Orleans were white middle class Americans, would they still be sinking into a hell hole?

 

[against_odds21]

If you're so concerned why don't you go down and help?

 

[VikingPenis]

Would do mean man trying ...to understand

 

[The BTC Killer]

There was a riot on the streets
Tell me where were you?
You were sittin' home watchin' your TV
While I was participating in some anarchy
First spot we hit it was the liquor store
I finally got all that alcohol I can't afford
With red lights flashin', time to retire
And then we turned that liquor store into a structure fire
Next stop we hit, it was the music shop,
It only took one brick to make the window drop
Finally we got our own P.A.
Where do you think I got this guitar that you're hearing today?
(Cuz' as long as I'm alive, I'ma live ill B)
When we returned to the pad to unload everything
It dawned on me that I need new home furnishings
So once again we filled the van until it was full
Since that day my livin' room's been much more comfortable

The moral, if I lived down there I would have a lot of stuff.

 

[Duppi_KronKite]

Yes they would be sinking in a hole. If the government gets bigger under the influence of corporate interest, which is exactly what you SHOULD be seeing happening today.. the only way to complete such a task would be to destroy the middle class citizens.

The middle class citizens are the only competetion for the government. So if most white americans ARE middle class, then yes they too would be targets. The best targets would be young people as this usually angers the nation.

People need to keep it out of race issues or left and right issues and understand that everyone is the same and potentially at risk.

 

[The BTC Killer]

Yes they would be sinking in a hole. If the government gets bigger under the influence of corporate interest, which is exactly what you SHOULD be seeing happening today.. the only way to complete such a task would be to destroy the middle class citizens.

The middle class citizens are the only competetion for the government. So if most white americans ARE middle class, then yes they too would be targets. The best targets would be young people as this usually angers the nation.

yOUR one paranoid person. I'm middle class and I'm offended and appoled at your threats to my class. Stand down. Protecting middle class everywhere.

 

[jGman]

A lot of the people there now either had no way of getting out or nowhere to go. I'm sure some stayed back, knowing they'd be able to pillage the place afterwards. It only takes a few asswipes to screw things up. I think that's what's happening there now. Race has nothing to do with it. You got a lot of desperate people with nowhere to go. The majority have been civil.

Personally, I don't know what I would do if my house, some friends, family members, all my possesions, just one day got wiped out overnight. And then all I did for the next couple days was wait around with thousands of other people in the same situation with no food, water, etc.

The Government dropped the ball on this one, both at the state and federal level. That idiot in charge of FEMA, in the interviews I seen of him, looked like he was totally clueless on what to do in a disaster such as this. He had more excuses than solutions.

Everyone know how bad this storm was going to be, but didn't prepare one bit for it. Where are all our naval vessels? The other day they said the only one 'in range' of NO was the USS Battan. Where the hell are our Carrier Groups at? I know we have at least 15 such groups, maybe even a couple more than that. One of our most important naval ports and only ONE warship within a couple days' range of it? I think even Bush mentioned today he wasn't happy with the response.

 

[iwant8inches]

Yes they would be sinking in a hole. If the government gets bigger under the influence of corporate interest, which is exactly what you SHOULD be seeing happening today.. the only way to complete such a task would be to destroy the middle class citizens.

The middle class citizens are the only competetion for the government. So if most white americans ARE middle class, then yes they too would be targets. The best targets would be young people as this usually angers the nation.

People need to keep it out of race issues or left and right issues and understand that everyone is the same and potentially at risk.

It is interesting that the majority of the people still there are not white. Regardless of the population's overall makeup of race/color. It still remains that most of those people still there weren't exactly upper or even middle class. The storm wasn't discriminative, but the way the evacuations were conducted and precautions prior to the storm might as well have been.

 

[dee3186]

If that was iraq everything would of been under controll the next day, dont everybody that got effectedby that wish we would of got a smart president.

 

[Kal-el]

If the people of New Orleans were white middle class Americans, would they still be sinking into a hell hole?

I have another question. If it were Beverley Hills or Hollywood, would Bush be faster on the draw to help? Let's see, he has no problem sending 130,000 of our soliders overseas, but we don't even have control of the streets of New Orleans? I guess Iraq is more important.

 

[PETER DICK]

I have another question. If it were Beverley Hills or Hollywood, would Bush be faster on the draw to help? Let's see, he has no problem sending 130,000 of our soliders overseas, but we don't even have control of the streets of New Orleans? I guess Iraq is more important.

I hope you don't think it took 4 days to deploy everyone to Iraq, and I hope you don't think everything there got fixed in 4 days either. What are YOU doing to help the hurricane victims?

 

[Dashdeming]

If the people of New Orleans were white middle class Americans, would they still be sinking into a hell hole?

The answer is no. The white middle class white americans got out well before the storm and are watching this disaster on TV like the rest of us.

The primary failing is that the New Orleans city government knew for years that this disaster would one day come, however, they made the choice over and over to spend citzen tax dollars on entertainment related improvements for the betterment of the the local businesses whom influence the politicians. THe money should have been spent on correcting the levies and disaster preparedness. For goodness sake they didn't even have a satellite phone to communicate with when the disaster hit.

Is this a race issue? No way. The secondary failing with this issue is the governor of Louisiana did not act before the storm and stage federal and state rescue outside the perimeter. There was all kinds of notice to do this but they didn't. Then, with no means of communication, no one knew right away exactly how bad the issue is.

And third, rescuing one person takes a prescribed amount of time. Rescuing 100,000 person takes 100,000 times as much time. You can only do it as fast as one rescue when you have 100,000 rescue teams. Even if you had 100,000 rescue teams, you couldn't work them all in a concentrated area.

Last comment, it is not middle class americans that are shooting at the rescue teams and causing huge delays in rescue.

 

[goinfor11x7]

Question: Why did the Army of Engineers build the levees to withstand a cat. 3 storm when the possibility of a cat. 4 or higher was well within the realm of possibility?
Economics? Cost effective? Politics?

How much you want to bet when they pump the water out, and start doing a body count, most of the dead will be the elderly, the sick, small children and infants--those least able to take care of themselves?

 

[Duppi_KronKite]

Why did the government cut funding towards building levees and dykes in that area by more than 90% in the last year?

Why deny the aid from other nations who want to bring filters so people have clean water?

Why did they not stop the rebels right away instead of waiting until things got completely out of hand and then declare Martial Law?

Do they cut funding to protect the land, deny aid from other nations and let rebels get out of hand because it is fun to watch?

If the current government can't help this situation and can't control the rebels the only solution would be to have a bigger government with bigger police and military forces.

That would solve the problem...

 

[iwant8inches]

The answer is no. The white middle class white americans got out well before the storm and are watching this disaster on TV like the rest of us.

The primary failing is that the New Orleans city government knew for years that this disaster would one day come, however, they made the choice over and over to spend citzen tax dollars on entertainment related improvements for the betterment of the the local businesses whom influence the politicians. THe money should have been spent on correcting the levies and disaster preparedness. For goodness sake they didn't even have a satellite phone to communicate with when the disaster hit.

Is this a race issue? No way. The secondary failing with this issue is the governor of Louisiana did not act before the storm and stage federal and state rescue outside the perimeter. There was all kinds of notice to do this but they didn't. Then, with no means of communication, no one knew right away exactly how bad the issue is.

And third, rescuing one person takes a prescribed amount of time. Rescuing 100,000 person takes 100,000 times as much time. You can only do it as fast as one rescue when you have 100,000 rescue teams. Even if you had 100,000 rescue teams, you couldn't work them all in a concentrated area.

Last comment, it is not middle class americans that are shooting at the rescue teams and causing huge delays in rescue.

I wouldn't throw out a comment like that last one unless you were ever in that situation where everything you own and people you love don't have food or water and basically can't leave and no one seems to be showing up to help. I don't blame people for "looting". The insurance costs for everyone else will go up regardless and some businesses will never recover and possibly never reopen, but survival is the only thing that mattered. When faced with devestation some people regardless of class or whatever will resort to the most vile things. The rapings, shootings, and other high crimes are inexcusable, but honestly the point is the evacuations and preparedness for such a natural disaster were atrocious and unforgivable. The amount money that was asked for repeatedly by the military to work on the things that could have prevented such a fate after the fact was never even approached by our government. The wetlands were fucked and developed and you can blame all sorts of idiotic policies and priorities by the administration, FEMA, the mayor of New Orleans in particular, and corporations for this mess. It was completely avoidable and now how many people have died needlessly? The people that were basically given little to no chance of actually evacuating happened to be of the poor variety. It's ALWAYS that way.

 

[goinfor11x7]

"The people that were basically given little or no chance of actually evacuating happened to be of the poor variety. It's ALWAYS that way."

...Doubledamn!!!

 

[VikingPenis]

Buddy says It happend to New Orleans because of Martygraw (however you spell it) Fat Tuesday. Like a modern Sodom and Gamorrah.

 

[against_odds21]

Saw a thread like this in another forum manifest in a Bush bash too. Its easy for you to sit back and point your fingers eh? Many were fools for not leaving and I only have pity on those that couldn't, primarily the elderly and sick. Stop the rebels right away eh duppi? Shoot to kill a few to control the chaos and then hear you complain about that? Police get sniped at and helicopters shot at and you have the nerve to say they should have acted quicker? Pfft. First concerns were rescue. Should they not have been?

So easy to criticize.

If you didn't see some of the morally, socially, criminally poor check out this putfile clip.

 

[Dashdeming]

I wouldn't throw out a comment like that last one unless you were ever in that situation where everything you own and people you love don't have food or water and basically can't leave and no one seems to be showing up to help. I don't blame people for "looting". The insurance costs for everyone else will go up regardless and some businesses will never recover and possibly never reopen, but survival is the only thing that mattered. When faced with devestation some people regardless of class or whatever will resort to the most vile things. The rapings, shootings, and other high crimes are inexcusable, but honestly the point is the evacuations and preparedness for such a natural disaster were atrocious and unforgivable. The amount money that was asked for repeatedly by the military to work on the things that could have prevented such a fate after the fact was never even approached by our government. The wetlands were fucked and developed and you can blame all sorts of idiotic policies and priorities by the administration, FEMA, the mayor of New Orleans in particular, and corporations for this mess. It was completely avoidable and now how many people have died needlessly? The people that were basically given little to no chance of actually evacuating happened to be of the poor variety. It's ALWAYS that way.

I have been in the zone already and I know what I saw and what the 100's of devistated people told me directly. The good people were in that situation and not shooting at the help. It is a couple of gangs of thugs that are roaming the streets in the darkness of night and doing all of the terrible criminal acts. These acts have nothing to do with forcing these thugs to do these things for survival. It is all about taking advantage of a bad situation and doing exactly what they already had been doing to a much lesser scale. Thse people were evil before the event and are ruthless with the lights out and little police available. I am headed back into the north side today and will stay for about 58 hours to provide support. Pray for me please.

 

[Duppi_KronKite]

Saw a thread like this in another forum manifest in a Bush bash too. Its easy for you to sit back and point your fingers eh? Many were fools for not leaving and I only have pity on those that couldn't, primarily the elderly and sick. Stop the rebels right away eh duppi? Shoot to kill a few to control the chaos and then hear you complain about that? Police get sniped at and helicopters shot at and you have the nerve to say they should have acted quicker? Pfft. First concerns were rescue. Should they not have been?

So easy to criticize.

If you didn't see some of the morally, socially, criminally poor check out this putfile clip.

Im not complaining. Like I said before I am prepared. Just thought I'd share the valuable lesson that was learned here. The government isnt going to save you as most of you seem to believe.

Once things really start getting bad the police/military are not going to help you so all you can do is be prepared to help yourself.

If a nuke went off in a metro city tonight and you weren't in that city would you say people could have escaped?

I know I use the nuke scenario lots but when you hear officials constantly referring to it, you can get the iage its in the brewing.

 

[iwant8inches]

Saw a thread like this in another forum manifest in a Bush bash too. Its easy for you to sit back and point your fingers eh? Many were fools for not leaving and I only have pity on those that couldn't, primarily the elderly and sick. Stop the rebels right away eh duppi? Shoot to kill a few to control the chaos and then hear you complain about that? Police get sniped at and helicopters shot at and you have the nerve to say they should have acted quicker? Pfft. First concerns were rescue. Should they not have been?

So easy to criticize.

If you didn't see some of the morally, socially, criminally poor check out this putfile clip.

I have yet to actually read anything that officially comfirms these supposed shootings at helicopters. It really seemed for a while that the news only wanted to focus on the bad things going on. But the whole time people were wondering on air why there was such a slow and insufficient response. Bush and the administration along with Congress would have to take blame. If we didn't have such a pro-corporate President and cabinet maybe the wetlands wouldn't have been drained and developed. That definitely played a role in the damage and loss of lives too.

 

[iwant8inches]

I have been in the zone already and I know what I saw and what the 100's of devistated people told me directly. The good people were in that situation and not shooting at the help. It is a couple of gangs of thugs that are roaming the streets in the darkness of night and doing all of the terrible criminal acts. These acts have nothing to do with forcing these thugs to do these things for survival. It is all about taking advantage of a bad situation and doing exactly what they already had been doing to a much lesser scale. Thse people were evil before the event and are ruthless with the lights out and little police available. I am headed back into the north side today and will stay for about 58 hours to provide support. Pray for me please.

Thank god for you and I'll pray for your safety as I know people there. Whoever was looting supplies are not to be blamed. The people shooting are evil and like I said unforgivable. However the people that have lost everything and we're waiting around for days...I can't see how anyone but someone in that situation can be blamed for stealing supplies or a bus for instance to get out of town. Whatever happens happens regardless of the fortune or misfortune thereafter, but those such occurences were for survival and in that situation people become desperate and take chances.

 

[Dashdeming]

Thanks. I too do not blame those that are taking for survival.

The Bush administration had nothing to do with building in the wetlands, nor did Clinton and go back as far as you want. States are in full authority for such things but, in this case the area was well developed before reguations were put in place. You could blame it all on Lafayette. Lafayette was a lawless scoundrel that went there because it was such a hard area to live and he felt no one would come there looking for him.

The fact still remains, the state government is in charge and responsible. That is why we are call called the UNITED States and not just the states. All states have autonomy and the fed is there to deal with the common issues rather than the specific issues of the states (and all stated have their own unique issues). Even more of an interesting dynamic is that fact that Louisiana still insists upon operating under Napoleonic law unlike the other 49 states.

 

[goinfor11x7]

I have been in the zone already and I know what I saw and what the 100's of devistated people told me directly. The good people were in that situation and not shooting at the help. It is a couple of gangs of thugs that are roaming the streets in the darkness of night and doing all of the terrible criminal acts. These acts have nothing to do with forcing these thugs to do these things for survival. It is all about taking advantage of a bad situation and doing exactly what they already had been doing to a much lesser scale. Thse people were evil before the event and are ruthless with the lights out and little police available. I am headed back into the north side today and will stay for about 58 hours to provide support. Pray for me please.

God Bless You, DD. I wish I were there. I would join you. All I can do is donate money.

Question: Isn't the Army Corps of Engineers under the control of the Federal Government?

 

[Dashdeming]

God Bless You, DD. I wish I were there. I would join you. All I can do is donate money.

Question: Isn't the Army Corps of Engineers under the control of the Federal Government?

The corp of engineers do get involved with some water retention projects at teh request of states. A huge problem in the New Orleans area is that the salty ocean water has more available head, or in other words, is at a higher level than the fresh water table height. THis means that much of the vegitation in the area is dead and dying and therefore no longer doing a good job at controlling erosion. So the land has been allowed to deteriorate by the city, parish and state government (in the order of responsibility) and this leads to disaster. Let me state clearly to all of you, this is not just aq hurricane issue. It is, in fact, a failure of the local governments to control flooding of their land. Period. The record will eventually show that flooding killed the large numbers of people due to exactly what I am saying. Not the hurricane. This exact same thing would have happened without the hurricane except it might have had more deaths because people would not have left New Orleans with no warning. The death of these people are on the heads of the New Orleans myor and many of the past mayors as well as parish council and lastly the governors and past governors. This is an old problem that has been very well documented. Go search the Picayune Times newspaper website for articles in 2002. There was a whole series written and published in this paper describing exactly what has happened. THe predictions were very close. Not hard to predict really with all of the 3rd world country

 

[Kal-el]

Thank god for you and I'll pray for your safety as I know people there. Whoever was looting supplies are not to be blamed. The people shooting are evil and like I said unforgivable. However the people that have lost everything and we're waiting around for days...I can't see how anyone but someone in that situation can be blamed for stealing supplies or a bus for instance to get out of town. Whatever happens happens regardless of the fortune or misfortune thereafter, but those such occurences were for survival and in that situation people become desperate and take chances.

Yea, I could see if the "looters" were stealing medical supplies, food, water, or other neccesaties, but no, some were taking [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/mosdvd.htm]DVD[/words] players, PS2's, and big screen tVs. And some of them were uniformed officers! These people have no morals at all, and they are taking full advantage of a totally bad situation. Officers of the law are supposed to strive to set an example for the rest of us. I believe at the very least, they should be fired.

 

[jGman]

I don't think any one state has had anything to do with changing the Colorado, Mississippi, or any of our major rivers.

I agree that the states are autonomous, and that responsibility falls in an order from municipal, state, etc. But an event such as Katrina involved multiple states. This wasn't just a flood in N.O. This storm hit Florida, Mississippli, Louisianna. It threatened the entire Gulf region. At that stage, the Feds have to take the point. They're the only ones that have the vast resources needed to deal with event such as this, or should have the resources. It seems to me, though, that they also had their heads up their asses.

 

[Bib]

jGman,

>I agree that the states are autonomous, and that responsibility falls in an order from municipal, state, etc. But an event such as Katrina involved multiple states. This wasn't just a flood in N.O. This storm hit Florida, Mississippli, Louisianna. It threatened the entire Gulf region. At that stage, the Feds have to take the point. They're the only ones that have the vast resources needed to deal with event such as this, or should have the resources. It seems to me, though, that they also had their heads up their asses.<

Nope, they cannot do it. The federal government must be invited into a situation within any individual state. The federal assets are then turned over to the state for use. The reasoning being that the local and state governments know much better where and what assets are needed. In this case, Mississippi did things fairly quickly. Louisiana did not.

In fact, the governor of La, Blanco, did not have a clue what was needed. The Mayor of N.O. did not either know or communicate what was needed, except to do a bunch of cussing on a radio show. It seemed they took the old socialist adage of calling on Big Daddy, the federal government to cure their problems. That is not how the system is set up. They totally abdicated their responsibilities.

Bush decared disaters areas TWO DAYS before the hurricane hit. He did everything legally needed WAY before he needed to, or legally should have. This gave the states the ability to call on whatever federal assets they needed, DHS and FEMA in particular. The National Guard is already under the auspices of the individual state governments. As is the Corp of Engineers. But Bush even took the unusual steps needed to allow the Ms. and La. governors to call on regular military.

Federal assets were then prepositioned before the storm hit, but they were not nearly enough for the resulting disaster. Who made the decisions on what was to be pre-positioned, and where? The mayor of N.O. and the governor.

Unbelievable, but N.O. did not even take their own advice: They did not evacuate their prisoners, and then simply released them when things looked bleak. Then they were amazed at the examples of social anarchy.

I am sure there will be many investigations of the La situation. If anything, Bush will probably come under fire for overstepping his bounds within an individual state. I have the feeling he told DOD to do whatever was needed to cure the situation, the governor and mayor be damned.

That is legally not the way it is supposed to work.

Funny how before things became bleakest, all of the Dems in Louisiana were saying how great Bush was for providing anything they needed. They could not say enough nice things about the administration, FEMA, et al.

Bigger

 

[penguinsfan]

How much you want to bet when they pump the water out, and start doing a body count, most of the dead will be the elderly, the sick, small children and infants--those least able to take care of themselves?

Given that such people would have the most trouble fleely from danger and seeking higher ground, I'll bet the farm on it. So?

 

[penguinsfan]

How much you want to bet when they pump the water out, and start doing a body count, most of the dead will be the elderly, the sick, small children and infants--those least able to take care of themselves?

Last year, when the extreme heat wave hit France, I think it was the elderly that were killed. Perplexing, isn't it. :s

 

[that guy]

Bib - You are a wise man. I would have duplicated some of what you said had I not read your post first.

Many people are playing the blame game now. Don't blame. Do. When 9/11 happened, Rudi G didn't wait for the governer or President to step up. He immediately started to direct the efforts to save as many lives as possible. It was HIS city, not the governer's city, not the president's city. It was days of the NO Mayor whining and complaining about nobody doing anything to help his city out. There should have been a plan in place years ago. Even the mayor didn't evacuate and got stuck.

People are criticising Bush for cutting funding for the Levee Reconstruction efforts, thus causing the flooding. Last year, he did cut the budget from $21B to about $4B if I remember correctly. Had the full amount been given, the project would be completed in 2015, which would have done absolutely nothing to help this situation.

As for the Feds stepping in to take control, Bush has asked twice to do that. The governer of LA has denied both requests, not wanting the Feds to be in control of "her state".

So many people can point fingers. Yes, it is a terrible situation. Many people are suffering and dying when they don't have to be. However, there are military personnel going door to door right now throughout all of NO literally begging people to leave their houses that are flooded and filled with sewage and god knows what else. The can not force people to leave and many people WANT to stay. How much more effort is required now to go and beg people to leave a situation not fit for humans?

I'm not saying that the Federal Government couldn't have done something differently, but other than being a tyrant, Bush did what he could. FEMA dropped the ball without a doubt.

I can't wrap my head around everything going on with this. I just hope people stop blaming and start acting. It's sad that anyone would start playing partisan politics when American lives are still in the balance.

Sorry. I'll step off of the soap box now.

 

[goinfor11x7]

I was raised to believe that we are all our brothers' and our sisters' keepers. To me, this is a moral and human issue, not political, social, economic, or whatever. It took an awfully long time for people to reach out to those who, for whatever reasons, don't have the voices to ask for help. Imagine how many people could have been saved.

 

[OzStretch]

Most of you are missing the real problem here which is spread out all over America and any other country that has raised generations of Welfare/Dole/Social Services dependant people.

Most of the people who stayed behind have been raised to expect that the Govt. will take care of them, in almost every way. This expectation is believed to be a "right"!

This external dependancy has stripped the ability to think independantly. The people were waiting around with the expectation that all will be all right because the govt. will take care of them. This is a false security that will always keep people down on the bottom, because a successful society depends on people taking personal responsibity for all of their actions and outcomes.

Almost all of these people could have afforded the $20 bus fare to get out of NO, but most were waiting for the bus to stop in front of their house, knock on the door and tell them what to do. That is how the system has always worked before.

This is personally not the fault of the individuals today, as our system has raised them to be this way through generations. The fault is in the system, and it will only get worse as each year goes by, unless major changes are made. People need to re-learn that they can be contributors to society, and handouts need to be eliminated over time through productive work programs.

As long as the haves continue to build walls around their neighborhoods, and cities divided at the railroad tracks this will never happen.

A brilliant book called the End of Workstated that 70% of the current jobs in the USA could technically be replaced today by automation. This number is increasing every year. He states that if the companies and the govt. continue to chase profits, and efficiency, these jobs will be lost and a huge percentage of the population will never be employable again. This 70% will only exist to serve the 30% in the service industry. If this were to happen, a country of complete anarchy would exist, and the 30% would live in highly secure compounds, or be forced to flee the country to their already owned island retreats.

Katrina was the light that comes on in the middle of the night in the pristine white house that looks so pretty by day, but when the light is turned on at night the hidden cockroaches scramble across the floors.

It has shown a side of America that most of the world has never seen, and many of the Americans have always turned a blind eye to.

 

[iwant8inches]

Bib - You are a wise man. I would have duplicated some of what you said had I not read your post first.

Many people are playing the blame game now. Don't blame. Do. When 9/11 happened, Rudi G didn't wait for the governer or President to step up. He immediately started to direct the efforts to save as many lives as possible. It was HIS city, not the governer's city, not the president's city. It was days of the NO Mayor whining and complaining about nobody doing anything to help his city out. There should have been a plan in place years ago. Even the mayor didn't evacuate and got stuck.

People are criticising Bush for cutting funding for the Levee Reconstruction efforts, thus causing the flooding. Last year, he did cut the budget from $21B to about $4B if I remember correctly. Had the full amount been given, the project would be completed in 2015, which would have done absolutely nothing to help this situation.

As for the Feds stepping in to take control, Bush has asked twice to do that. The governer of LA has denied both requests, not wanting the Feds to be in control of "her state".

So many people can point fingers. Yes, it is a terrible situation. Many people are suffering and dying when they don't have to be. However, there are military personnel going door to door right now throughout all of NO literally begging people to leave their houses that are flooded and filled with sewage and god knows what else. The can not force people to leave and many people WANT to stay. How much more effort is required now to go and beg people to leave a situation not fit for humans?

I'm not saying that the Federal Government couldn't have done something differently, but other than being a tyrant, Bush did what he could. FEMA dropped the ball without a doubt.

I can't wrap my head around everything going on with this. I just hope people stop blaming and start acting. It's sad that anyone would start playing partisan politics when American lives are still in the balance.

Sorry. I'll step off of the soap box now.

Well, the problems really arise when the federal government doesn't do what it says it is going to. There was no immediate response to the devestation. It's in the Department of homeland security's plan afterall. The federal government would replace the state and local government efforts by providing immediate assistance to the areas. The local areas asked for help in response to the catastrophe. Was this what anyone saw?

It's the people's job to hold the government accountable for it's JOB. When the government doesn't do it's job people need to figure out what went wrong and how to correct it, but most importantly make sure it doesn't happen again. The best way to do this is to hold people accountable for their jobs therefore if they do not do their job then they should either be reprimanded or fired. All we've seen from this administration is deflection, denial, and lies. How much spin can you put on the handling of the situation in New Orleans? The national guard DID what they were supposed to do and can be commended as can other groups helping the relief, BUT the people that are supposedly in charge of deploying the Guard and those in charge of Emergencies on such a level as Katrina we can hardly afford to let this go quietly lest we want to see something similar again. There is plenty to discuss AFTER the fact, but like many have pointed out the blame is not soley on the President or the administration, however if our LEADER doesn't make certain he has the right people in the right places and that they are COMPenis EnlargementTENT then this is what can happen. No one can say the conditions of the levees were unknown. It was reported on. I only found out from a report on the radio the day the storm hit. As another poster pointed out it was in the paper and had been an issue there for many years.

There is a difference between just placing blame and realizing that some people made huge mistakes that could have been avoided and should have been avoided. Do you want those same people in charge in a similar situation? When the administration fails to point out (so conveniently) that the Department of Homeland Security's National Response Plan says it is to provide immediate assistance (not just supplemental assistance either) to an area in need, yet fails to do so shouldn't we consider the federal government to be slightly INCOMPenis EnlargementTENT? I know I'm certain the majority of this administration is no longer if it ever was suitable for their jobs.

All you hear now from the local groups that were trying to ask for help from the federal level was that they were told the cavalry was coming. The groups asked for help and it wasn't met immediately. Ontop of all that there was knowledge of the levee conditions so how could the response be that delayed? The point in which we can only discuss at a constructive level is that of response. The preparedness was not there and we know there is fault somewhere on many levels, but the response on the federal level was not there as written and planned out by the DHS.

http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf#page=61

 

[penguinsfan]

You know, tragic as these events may have been, I am not impressed with the New Orleans community when it's all said and done.

As I think I mentioned somewhere, we had some bad flooding here in the Pittsburgh area in September of 2004. It was very minor compared to New Orleans, but it was declared a federal disaster. I remember the Millvale community having the entire business district flooded by several feet of water. There was ONE instance of looting in the Pittsburgh area and the woman was caught on a surveillance tape and was shamed by the entire community. As for New Orleans, nobody is going to look at someone taking food and necessary supplies in that way. There has probably been a good bit of that going on, but let's not kid ourselves and say that people were not stealing non-essential items as well.

Then you have the instances of rapes and murders in the shelter relief areas that were set up. I find it absolutely mind boggling. I cannot imagine the people in the communities around here behaving like such lawless animals, taking advantage in the worst way of the worst possible situation. And the instances of shooting at rescue workers in beyond understanding. Some of the behavior we saw represents the worst of the worst. Of course, it was obviously a small minority of people acting in such manners, but I cannot imagine Pittsburghers behaving as such. It really reflects poorly on the community.

New Orleans does have a very high crime rate. In fact, New Orleans kinda almost prides itself on being a "sin city" so to speak. They celebrate their partying and lawlessness at Mardi Gras, which is to be expected to a degree. However, I have heard stories about police driving through the streets during the parties while drinking beer in their patrol cars and other stories of like lawlessness. From what I understand, it is somewhat of a cultural thing that goes beyond just Mardi Gras. New Orleans pays its police officers starting salaries that are lower than any other major city, if I'm not mistaken, and police corruption is a terrible problem. On top of those social problems, where talking about a city largely built below sea level between a delta and a large lake and the city seemed to pride itself on having so much develop on what would otherwise be a swamp. Well, when you encounter a swamp in nature, it's swampland for a reason.

You know, it ain't Uncle Sam's duty to keep you from letting your community degenerate into a shithole. Now, I've never been there and I'm just going on numerous things I've heard. Perhaps "shithole" is too strong of a term, but I said it to prove a point. What I have seen and heard to much of is a prevailing attitude of laziness and whining. For years and years, New Orleans has waited for federal funding of the levee projects. Well, maybe they should have offered to fund a greater percentage of it themselves and they would have been more likely to sell that one in Washington. Instead, they have been waiting for the feds to fund it all. I wasn't the one that built in city in a swamp that is prime for flooding. We're talking about a multi-year project, so New Orleans should have been able to fund a large percentage of it themselves. They get an enormous amount of money flowing in from gambling revenues, so do what it takes. Hell, they could have been like the gambling mecca of the U.S., being Nevada, and legalized brothels if they needed additional tax revenues. No one could argue they were highly concerned about the moral image aspect and the servicemen in the Gulf would have generated millions upon millions of dollars of tax revenue. Point is, if the priority is that high, and it's the people that live there that are going to understand the potential danger, not congressmen from all over the country, you need to be proactive and do what it takes.

I don't know. I do hope to visit the city someday when things get straightened out, as friends have told me it's a nice place to visit. I am just not impressed with the vision and leadership of the community and the cultural values that have been instilled. When I have seen people interviewed from Biloxi and other communities, I have not seen the complaining and defeatist mentality.

 

[Bib]

Iwant8,

>All you hear now from the local groups that were trying to ask for help from the federal level was that they were told the cavalry was coming. The groups asked for help and it wasn't met immediately. Ontop of all that there was knowledge of the levee conditions so how could the response be that delayed? The point in which we can only discuss at a constructive level is that of response. The preparedness was not there and we know there is fault somewhere on many levels, but the response on the federal level was not there as written and planned out by the DHS.<

You do not get it. You obviously do not understand the relationship between the federal government and the individual states. In almost every case, the states trump the federal government, in all matters. The federal government CANNOT go into a state and do as you suggest. It is unconstitutional. Please do the research on exactly what happened. Bush asked the governor to let the feds have full rein, and she refused.

Bush declared the area a disaster area two days before the storm hit, so that the governor could have any federal resources she needed, and pre-position them. And FEMA and the Red Cross did pre-position all supplies needed. Any governor already has full control over their own National Guard. She could do as she wished with over 7000 troopes. I think she positioned 300. She also had the opportunity to call on National Guard from other states. The feds cannot do that.

FEMA is not a first responder organization. I think they only have about 1000 total employees, and are meant to only organize and supply, and contract for clean-up. That's it. They work with the Salvation Army and Red Cross to distribute the supplies. In the case of New Orleans, all of these organizations were not let into the city, BY THE GOVERNOR, because they wanted to evacuate the city, and were afraid sending in relief would make this more difficult.

So the governor asked FEMA for buses for the evacuation, while 1500 New Orleans buses sat under water. It did take a while for FEMA to get the buses rolling, but I do not see how this could be much of their fault.

I challenge anyone to honestly look at the effort of the federal government, what they did, what they were allowed to do, what they legally can do, and then criticize the effort. I would like to hear the exact faults of the feds. Many people are saying the feds failed, but then cannot come up with their exact sins. Let's hear them. The fact is, that guy Brown has been a scapegoat. He did everything he was allowed to do.

The mayor killed people by not using city buses to get the poor out of town. Most if not all could have been removd. The governor killed people by not allowing relief into the city. The feds could do nothing to stop the lunacy. The constitution prevents it.

Bigger

 

[Bib]

BTW,

There is no DHS plans, other than general plans. Each state, city, community comes up with their own plans. NOT the feds. How are the feds supposed to know or understand the needs of each community?

The feds do provide assistance, and can do it fairly immediately. What they cannot do is provide intelligence and sense to the state and local leaders to allow them to do their jobs.

Bigger

 

[penguinsfan]

Much of what Bib says is right. I am not a Bush cheerleader and I am not satisfied with how he has performed as a President, but this event was basically unprecedented as the feds could not begin to handle it without smaller government getting a jump on it. The degree to which it has been politicized is ridiculous.

 

[that guy]

I was watching Hannity and Colmes last Friday night. They had a conservative and a liberal debating who screwed up (which I still think should come AFTER everyone is safe and rebuilding begins), and I was completely stunned by what the liberal said. She stated that although the federal government can't legally take over control within a state, they should step in when the local and state government officials were overwhelmed and incompetent to handle a situation. When questioned on it, she again said that yes, the local and state officials in Louisiana were incompetent. Amazing.

 

[Bib]

Yes, the Feds will be guilty because big brother did not step in and make all things right immediately. Even though they did not have the power to do so.

Funny how Bush admits the Feds did not do enough, quickly enough. Smart guy. Because when Congress and independent commisions start looking at this, they are going to attempt to crush the Bush administration for OVERSTEPPING their bounds within an individual state. Inserting regular military and other acts without state authorization is not legal. But jumping on him for oversteping his bounds will be relieved by the fact that many more people would have died if he did not.

But then, the investigations are going to kill the governor and mayor. They were so imcompetent, the investigations will be something to see. I can still see in my minds eye, the governor warning against looting because the 82nd Airborne was on the way, and "they will be heavily armed, and know how to use those arms". How funny.

Bigger

 

[KiTTie8695]

All i can hear about is bitching in this thread.
How about instead of bitching you think of ways to help these people in need.
There are people dead, dying, starving, in need of clothes, food and water out
there right now. Dying of diseases because of the clean up.

 

[Colossus]

Well, I'm from New Orleans and it's hard to come up with any solution for anything. Since my childhood, we knew that this day we come sooner or later. But we always dodged bullets. The fact is that no one knew how it really is in New Orleans until now. My high school is or should I say was right in the middle of the Ninth Ward. I just went back for Thanksgiving and was blown away by seeing the devastation for myself.

It's really sad how things were handled. I was telling my brother when I drove back with him to his home in Houston that the city would be forever changed. The New Orleans that we knew from our childhood would never be the same.

And I'm getting sick of hearing these fucks that are saying that the government blew up the levees. What a crock of shit. This is how it is there. We knew that if we got a storm this powerful, there would be no New Orleans. Shit, the storm could have been worse and the city would literally be a lake. The levees were not powerful enough to withstand such a storm. I know, my parents house is a block away from one of the levees. Can you say, "under sea level?"

I am ashamed at our government. Iraq is more important than our homeland. Fuck Bush and fuck his administration.

Sorry if my rant makes no sense, but I could write pages on the effect this has had on my life as well as my family. That's how it is down there, it's all family. No one leaves. I hate to say it but it's a good thing I left a year ago. Cheers to the most historical city in the U.S.

 

[penguinsfan]

Colossus, sorry to hear all the shit you've been through. Hope everything works out for you and your family as best it can.

The government on all levels handled things very poorly, though this was kind of unprecedented. Seems like Brown and Chertoff (who is a real asshole---my brother-in-law used to work with him) really dropped the ball. Most of all, thank goodness I'm hearing from a resident that realizes how stupid some of them people sound with their theories that the government blew up the levees. Such individuals truly hurt the likelihood of further donations pouring in when the American people hear outrageous complaints such as that.

 

[Colossus]

Thanks for your kind words Penguin Fan.

Yeah, all these idiots are doing is putting fear and hate into the hearts of others.