Federal Europe - Your Thoughts

[rakas]

As this is a fairly American forum i just wanted to get a more international prospective on a future federal European which is looking more and more likely.

Essentially, the Eurozone gave the member states a common currency and the Berlin-Plus agreement gave the European Union the right to invade who it likes in the name of the EU even if NATO disagrees (though NATO does have first refusal). The European Union itself also has the power to force legislation on its member states.

In response to the Eurozone debt crisis it seems that France and Germany (the effective leaders) want a solution which sees further political and fiscal integration which is another great step towards a federal Europe.

I would add that in the UK the general opinion is against a federal Europe with polls indicating that only about 20% of people would support such a solution (many people are too proud of their individual sovereignty) however i am personally a proponent of a federal Europe.

Thoughts?

 

[REDZULU2003]

I'd have to research more into these recent meetings. I'm not a huge fan of having Europe run the country I live in but it has some perks i.e the EU human rights acts but many things to it are very iffy. Its really a scratch my back and I will scratch your back club with Germany and France being the major players. I dont like much of what NATO and the EU has become either. I dont mind being part of something, so long as the majority of the decision making and power doesn't go to a 'central' European committee if you like. Britain should never have to nip through the cat flap to ask for decisions on major things in running its affairs. This EU is getting closer to one huge state, controlled by the major powers in it. The former soviet nations dont give a shit, and they are glad to join because they will be better off but in the long run you have to ask who is really in charge, what are they doing and what exactly are they going to do for my country. I know the British government is super bent and twisted but its better the devil you know then the devil you don't know.

Britain also doesn't have the power it used to in military or anything else and its time we finally realized it. Let France and Germany go up the states ass, it takes the attention off the UK. We really don't need to keep getting on the high horse and sorting everyone shit out. Do what most other nations in the UN do when literally made kicking and screaming to go into hell hole's like Afghanistan granted we as the alliance helped make them further hell holes, we still along with the yanks send the most support in! yet Germany and France are meant to be big dogs, don't see um walking the walk no offense to Germans and French here.

If only we could all live in peace and run our nations so well instead of having pieces of shit running the show, who only care to take from the poor and make the rich even richer.

 

[rakas]

Several good points there, a federal Europe is much more about France and Germany being able to rule a continent than it is actually needed per say.

In terms of military France actually is quite active as a major player in all NATO missions although it is indeed the USA and UK partnership which essentially dictates what NATO does.

Germany is an interesting point as with the size of their economy and how advanced their technology generally is you have to say that right now they opitimise the phrase "sleeping giant". If they ever increased their military spending and adopted an aggressive foreign policy then most countries would be crapping themselves.

The UK indeed does not wield the power it once had and that is why i believe our future lies in a united Europe.

 

[dickerschwanz]

The european union is ineffective.
The population in most eu countrys is against the eu or is moving towards this stance.
The problem is that for the average citizen the eu has no advantages.
The single countrys have not much in common.
Even geographically neighbours like germany and netherlands have vast differences in their behaviour and stances on several issues.
In some cases it makes sense to have common rules and everything worked quiet good until they moved into one currency. A open trade and huminatary laws are good.
But in the end the EU is a in most parts non elected government that has too many rights and influence without any control by its citizens.
The EU is now a lobbyist scheme greater then that of the U.S and any other single country bleeding money from its citizens(mainly from the germans )

 

[REDZULU2003]

I would like to say that I have nothing against any nation and like the French and Germans, in case I seemed nasty in my last post here. Yes the French and Germans plus many other nations such as Belgium and Holland all help in these wars and often never mentioned it has to be said! The Belgium pilots are very good incl the Czech pilots who fly the F-16's. My feelings now and I say this reluctantly in some ways, patriotic I guess is that the UK need to step down and allow another stronger nation to take over from them in many ways such as Germany or France ... the UK CANNOT trade blows toe to toe like it once could and the US knows this know which is why I think Obama is more pally with Germany and to some extent France then they the US were in the past. The UK cannot provide the military might it once could, why should it anyway.

As you said Rakas, Germany could be quite a power but they will never allow that to go out of hand with what went down in WW2. The Germans are a very controlled bunch and very tactical with really sound ways of thinking, strategists I see them as ... very important friends to have and level headed!!! France is proud and passionate nation. Yes in theory a united Europe would be lovely but its who really is in charge, what is going on with it all and other areas that would need clarification.

 

[MAXAMEYES]

If the rise of the US as a world power is any indication of how any other world power might conduct itself as it too rises, you really have to recognize that; as a government gets larger and more powerful it also becomes more impersonal and burdened by bureaucratic inertia.
At some point a government ceases to be an instument of the collective will of the populace and becomes an entity all its own whose primary occupation is only sustaining and protecting itself.

A global power can deal rather effectively with global conditions, but at great cost (historically) to the individual.

A quote that has been attributed to many great men in the past that I'm reminded of: "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither."
Which dovetails nicely with: "Be careful what you wish for, it just might come true."

 

[Aimingforthetop]

the EU is a fascist mechanism eating and eating trying to become bigger and bigger.
here is no democracy in EU.
vote for someone. who then decide who in denmark should go to eu. then this guy who got voted in by the people i voted for. votes for someone i dont even know. and he is the president of the eu.

his is a man nobody really know. your not allowed to critizise him and. and he earns more than obama does.

so far he has blocked 2 public elections that i know of. and put in a technocratic government while overthrowing a democratic government (dont get me wrong the governement was corrupt but this is corruption in plain sight)

i dont want the euro. i see no point in giving away power from each and every country. to an unelected government.

if your interrested in this i suggest you to youtube nigel farage. who at this point has been more or less a fortune teller on the the crisis all the way.

to tell the thruth. the fact that people haven risen up against this tyranny scares the shit out of me.
for the americans to put this in perspective.
if i told you you could not elect your president. then what would you do?

 

[rakas]

the EU is a fascist mechanism eating and eating trying to become bigger and bigger.
here is no democracy in EU.
vote for someone. who then decide who in denmark should go to eu. then this guy who got voted in by the people i voted for. votes for someone i dont even know. and he is the president of the eu.

his is a man nobody really know. your not allowed to critizise him and. and he earns more than obama does.

so far he has blocked 2 public elections that i know of. and put in a technocratic government while overthrowing a democratic government (dont get me wrong the governement was corrupt but this is corruption in plain sight)

i dont want the euro. i see no point in giving away power from each and every country. to an unelected government.

if your interrested in this i suggest you to youtube nigel farage. who at this point has been more or less a fortune teller on the the crisis all the way.

to tell the thruth. the fact that people haven risen up against this tyranny scares the shit out of me.
for the americans to put this in perspective.
if i told you you could not elect your president. then what would you do?

Fair points.

Which country are you from?

I personally support the concept of a federal Europe but i do acknowledge what you have said and would like to see a lot of reform...

The EU president should be elected.

The EU parliament should be put upside down - by this i mean that currently it acts like the UK HOL in that it can only suggest amendments and say Yes or No rather than actively propose legislation like the the UK HOC does, the countries parliaments would then act like the UK HOL which gives them a greater say in addition to the elected MEP's having a greater say than the EU commision.

Economically i also want the CAP and CFP policies scrapped.

Nigeal Farage - Brilliant public speaker but he often takes his arguments too far and i obviously disagree with his EU policies on the whole.

 

[MAXAMEYES]

QUOTE: for the americans to put this in perspective.
if i told you you could not elect your president. then what would you do?

To be honest, the average American voter does not, in fact, elect the President. Mostly it's corporations, via the electoral college, that elect the President.

 

[synergio]

This guy has some interesting views:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coalJcqFpQE

 

[rebel2011]

Max how many times in us history has the president been elected without the majority of populous vote? I know of one i think. The problem with government is Eventually it becomes out of touch with the common people. It want to give big corporations a free ride on the back of middle class workers and it wants to give the poor the same.

Everyone should pay the exact same tax per dollar. People should not get earned income credit because they make less than 35000 a year. Warren buffet shouldn't pay the 12% or whatever it is instead of the 28 or 30 this secretary is paying. Billion dollar industry should not get tax breaks to stay in the usa. They should be penalized for moving to Mexico and China.

All politicians in the usa in federal government are corrupted by greed and big corporate lobbyist. Politics as usual. The EU will be the same way except they will play favorites with the less powerful nations. They will be the ones burdened with carrying the government on the back of the working class.

 

[MAXAMEYES]

http://www.factmonster.com/spot/campaign2000race.html

Electoral college= dinosauric.

 

[rebel2011]

Good stuff max! This is prolly gonna get off topic of EU but it will apply.

The problem with voting for anyone is that the people that run for office are so far away from reality they have no idea what problems us normal folks have. Look at your republican candidates for pressure. Romney has never been poor. He has never had to work to survive. Newt has been a politician so long he can't remember what a normal job is. Rick is probably the only decent one in the bunch.

I admit i haven't followed it as well as i should. I really don't care to because it does not really matter. They will promises hope and change but they can't do anything to change the country. Regardless of who is in office its the " one %" that run things. Politicians are just puppets to these people.

The bigger government get the less local it is. The less local the more disconnected it gets from the people it is supposed to service. The more disconnected it is from the people The better connected it gets with big money and we get screwed with trillion dollar bail outs and tax breaks. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

When is the last time you could actually talk to your congressman? I bet the president or coe of the major insurance company has his personal number on speed dial. The entire system is fucked. The EU will be the same way. There will be a handful of people making decisions that have no idea what it means to work for a living. Just wait and see.

A revolution is coming to America. There is only so much they can take. It has to change soon or the government will collapse.