Cutting phase nearing end: Estimated body fat?

[Jamian]

If anyone could estimate my body fat, feel free to tell me. I lost 15 pounds in the last month and a half or so, so I am wondering where I am at. I am thinking maybe 12%.

No critiques needed really. However I was doing body weight exercises with the reps until failure to maintain, instead of dumbbells and barbells to failure, due to lack of gym in this winter vacation. So it was a nice change. But I am ready to go back to the weights.

Vegan bodybuilder for one year. No candy, and a huge load of water.

 

[Jamian]

Used to be 207 5'6, got down to 160 6 months, then up 165 from bulking and weight training in 4 and a half months, then down 150 in 1 and a half month. I am now 5'7-5'8. Around there. Probably not going to grow anymore... but I've heard swimming increases height. Heh.

I am convinced my electronic scale is broken. It's always said I was around21.5% body fat, even though it sends electricity through the body to detect how much body fat there is.

Heres another picture

 

[prince Albert]

I would guess 14%.

The guy in this thread is just under 12%

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/m_868665/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm

 

[sikdogg]

I would guess around 16-17%...

In the second pic, he doesn't show any shape on his pecs even with the lighting and he's showing a little pooch in his lower abs...

 

[TomdW]

I think about 16% BF. One question.... Why are you wearing a bag in those pictures? ?

 

[Jamian]

Yeah, now that I see myself again I do look like around the area you guys said. I think I might have been focusing more on the first picture then the one with the better lighting. I'm not sure how to get rid of my "little pouch." I would guess, just more dieting and cardio like I have been doing. Oh well.
Just constantly eating fruits and vegetables consistently and protein shakes. Trying to get in as little calories as possible and having a higher density in it because the high density makes for more digestion which burns calories along with 30 minutes of cardio a day I've been doing, it is a bit of a hard task to make sure my metabolism stays high. But I've gotten used to it.

I am wearing a bag in that picture because it looks nice on me.

 

[goldmember]

Dude, you need red meat in your diet. I leaned out quicker then ever when I bulked up and put on some serious muscle, then cut. The red meat will get you big faster than any veggie burgers or tree sandwiches ever will. If you aren't against it, at least get yourself a good dessicated liver supplement, like one sold by Beverley Int. @ bodybuilding.com

I would guess about 17%

 

[goldmember]

BTW, don't listen to those bioimpedence scales, they are always wrong!!! A skin-fat caliper is a much better choice...I don't understand how they can continue to use bioimpedence as a method of measuring bodyfat! It postulates that water conducts electricity and fat doesn't. But anything that causes you to hold water (like salt, creatine, glycerol, etc.) will make the reading lower, and if you were to take a diuretic, it would say you are extremely fat! I tried this experiment in the physiology lab at my university: Took the bioimpedence test first thing in the morning after pissing and not eating or drinking anything...I think it said I was around 20%! Then I left and had a huge chinese food meal with lots of soy sauce and drank about 3L of water. I waited about two hours then took the test again and it said about 8 or 9%!! How can they continue to sell a method that is this inaccurate? It's beyond me...

I don't think I was clear in the other post: I tried cutting when I first started bodybuilding and it took forever to get to where I wanted to be (<12%). I think it took about 6 months. Then I bulked up on steak, liver tabs, creatine, hydrolyzed whey, dextrose, gatorade, pasta, peanut butter, whole eggs, occasional chicken and tuna fish, some dairy (whole milk and cottage cheese), and olive oil-based sauces and dressings. I think I gained about 30 pounds in six months with absolutely no steroids! Then I cut out the sugars and half the fats, added some flax oil, and kept my calories lowered and got down to 9% in about four months. That was much easier, and much more fun than my original method which took six months.

 

[Jamian]

If you think it annoys meat eaters when those pussy vegetarians rag on them, how much do you think it annoys a vegan when you tell them to eat red meat?

I cut this following quote from the last post I made on this: http://www.mattersofsize.com/forum/showthread.php?p=199091#post199091

"With being vegan, by the way, I love animals (I am a furry, feel free to look that up if you wish,) and believe mass producing them and killing them is totally wrong. I thought by being vegetarian that you are supporting the same people who kill the cows after milking them. And for all they care, as long as they make money they will continue to do both."

Now with that said, no. I will indeed, never incorperate red meat into my diet.

Thank you very much for the suggestion on the liver supplement, though. I will be sure to look that up.

//end rant

 

[Jamian]

BTW, don't listen to those bioimpedence scales, they are always wrong!!! A skin-fat caliper is a much better choice...I don't understand how they can continue to use bioimpedence as a method of measuring bodyfat! It postulates that water conducts electricity and fat doesn't. But anything that causes you to hold water (like salt, creatine, glycerol, etc.) will make the reading lower, and if you were to take a diuretic, it would say you are extremely fat! I tried this experiment in the physiology lab at my university: Took the bioimpedence test first thing in the morning after pissing and not eating or drinking anything...I think it said I was around 20%! Then I left and had a huge chinese food meal with lots of soy sauce and drank about 3L of water. I waited about two hours then took the test again and it said about 8 or 9%!! How can they continue to sell a method that is this inaccurate? It's beyond me...

I don't think I was clear in the other post: I tried cutting when I first started bodybuilding and it took forever to get to where I wanted to be (<12%). I think it took about 6 months. Then I bulked up on steak, liver tabs, creatine, hydrolyzed whey, dextrose, gatorade, pasta, peanut butter, whole eggs, occasional chicken and tuna fish, some dairy (whole milk and cottage cheese), and olive oil-based sauces and dressings. I think I gained about 30 pounds in six months with absolutely no steroids! Then I cut out the sugars and half the fats, added some flax oil, and kept my calories lowered and got down to 9% in about four months. That was much easier, and much more fun than my original method which took six months.

Ah, thank you for that information on that! That seems very useful. I didn't see this on the post I just made above, so please excuse the lack of praise.

I guess it was a waste of money. Especially because I bought it a second time after the first one I thought broke. Heh.

I am of course doing the cut that you say. Although, the only fat I am getting is from black strap molassus, brewers yeast and flaxseed oil. Seems to balance it all out though.

Thank you again for your information.

 

[9cyclops9]

If you think it annoys meat eaters when those pussy vegetarians rag on them, how much do you think it annoys a vegan when you tell them to eat red meat?

I cut this following quote from the last post I made on this: http://www.mattersofsize.com/forum/showthread.php?p=199091#post199091

"With being vegan, by the way, I love animals (I am a furry, feel free to look that up if you wish,) and believe mass producing them and killing them is totally wrong. I thought by being vegetarian that you are supporting the same people who kill the cows after milking them. And for all they care, as long as they make money they will continue to do both."

Now with that said, no. I will indeed, never incorperate red meat into my diet.

Thank you very much for the suggestion on the liver supplement, though. I will be sure to look that up.

//end rant

Liver tabs come from animals. Drinking whey shakes? Yep, animal product there too. And there is evidence that the soy shakes may increase your estrogen levels dramatically, among other very bad things. Which is bad for BBing, and for just being male. Where are the healthy animal fats coming from in your diet. The truth is, animal products are very important. If you want to be all hippy and tree-hugging and all, buy free-range meat instead.

A hippy vegan diet just isn't nearly as healthy as eating correctly (including the meat). I could have been a lot meaner, because vegans really annoy me. Exactly why do you think killing animals is wrong? They do it to each other all the time. You think they'll care if humans, by definition also animals, join in? I guess the lions and tigers and bears are all evil animals. Oh my.

 

[prince Albert]

Jamian.

Little article for you that might be of help,it has a sample vegan diet.

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/vegetarian-bodybuilding.asp

 

[Jamian]

He said liver supplementation, so I assumed he meant "a substitute for an animals liver" or "something for your liver."

And I do not prefer to be treated like a newbie on this, I asked for a simple estimation of my body fat. Nothing more. I appreciate the vegan websites, but I am not an idiot and don't need to follow samples. I know what to do with my own body.

That is why I clearly said not to give me any critques in my first post.

I would prefer that if you guys don't give me the most beginner of suggestions.

I don't want to sound

 

[Jamian]

Post got cut off, but I think one would get the point anyway.

 

[TomdW]

Liver tabs come from animals. Drinking whey shakes? Yep, animal product there too. And there is evidence that the soy shakes may increase your estrogen levels dramatically, among other very bad things. Which is bad for BBing, and for just being male. Where are the healthy animal fats coming from in your diet. The truth is, animal products are very important. If you want to be all hippy and tree-hugging and all, buy free-range meat instead.

A hippy vegan diet just isn't nearly as healthy as eating correctly (including the meat). I could have been a lot meaner, because vegans really annoy me. Exactly why do you think killing animals is wrong? They do it to each other all the time. You think they'll care if humans, by definition also animals, join in? I guess the lions and tigers and bears are all evil animals. Oh my.

I am a vegetarian and I do it in order to eat what I feel is right for my body.

Anatomically and physiologically, humans are just not meant to be carnivores or omnivores. The long, complicated human digestive tract is designed for the slow absorption of complex and stable plant food. Carnivores have short, simple bowels to allow for minimum transit time of unstable, dead animal food. Their intestinal microorgansims are different from humans', too.

On the other side of the coin, starch digestion in humans is quite elaborate, whereas carnivores eat little or no starch. If humans were carnivores, we'd be sweating through our tongues instead of our skin. Flesh eaters have teeth and jaws designed for tearing apart freshly killed animals. Only our hand tools allow us to override this obvious natural limitation, not to mention the fact that we get none of the nutrition contained in fur, feathers, organs and bones, the way true carnivores do.

Finally we seldom eat raw flesh. We almost always need to cook it in order to get rid of parasites and other harmful microforms, and to disguise the corpse that it is, none of which is necessary for real meat eaters. Humans are designed to be vegetarians and our bodies will never work their best if we keep forcing them to do something they were not equipped to handle. Try catching a wild chicken and then eat it raw if you really are a predatory carnivore. Or killing, tearing apart and eating a cow without cooking it and using no tools at any point. Don't you find it strange that we are the only so called carnivores that cook the meat before eating it?

 

[Jamian]

I am a vegetarian and I do it in order to eat what I feel is right for my body.

Anatomically and physiologically, humans are just not meant to be carnivores or omnivores. The long, complicated human digestive tract is designed for the slow absorption of complex and stable plant food. Carnivores have short, simple bowels to allow for minimum transit time of unstable, dead animal food. Their intestinal microorgansims are different from humans', too.

On the other side of the coin, starch digestion in humans is quite elaborate, whereas carnivores eat little or no starch. If humans were carnivores, we'd be sweating through our tongues instead of our skin. Flesh eaters have teeth and jaws designed for tearing apart freshly killed animals. Only our hand tools allow us to override this obvious natural limitation, not to mention the fact that we get none of the nutrition contained in fur, feathers, organs and bones, the way true carnivores do.

Finally we seldom eat raw flesh. We almost always need to cook it in order to get rid of parasites and other harmful microforms, and to disguise the corpse that it is, none of which is necessary for real meat eaters. Humans are designed to be vegetarians and our bodies will never work their best if we keep forcing them to do something they were not equipped to handle. Try catching a wild chicken and then eat it raw if you really are a predatory carnivore. Or killing, tearing apart and eating a cow without cooking it and using no tools at any point. Don't you find it strange that we are the only so called carnivores that cook the meat before eating it?

Actually, we used to be able to eat animals without cooking them but over time we lost the ability to ward off the diseases they carried. The reason we are called omnivores is because we have the enzymes and structure to break down both.

There are many contradictions in your statement. Didn't you say:

our bodies will never work their best if we keep forcing them to do something they were not equipped to handle.

You being a vegetarian means you drink milk. Humans are the only beings that drink milk from another animal. Milk was not even suppose to be a part of the human diet at all because after being weened from one's mother one was suppose to lose the enzymes to break down milk. Also, you eat bread too right? Bread is a combination of many different ingredients found on earth. Would primal human beings be spending their time with hunting down the different plants, getting a bowl, baking the ingredients, ect.

Don't you find it hard to believe that any primal human beings would do any of these things? I think it would be weirder to do those things then to hunt down and eat animals raw. Maybe that is just me.

 

[TomdW]

I said that I was vegetarian simply to make the point that I don't eat meat. What I should have said is that I am an Alkalarian. No, I don't drink milk or eat bread.

For more information on this visit. http://www.pHydromaxiracleliving.com/

There is also an interview with an alkalarian body builder. Check it out. Go here: http://www.pHydromaxiracleliving.com/vidtest.htm and click on Ryan Marcotte.

I highly advise that you read the book called 'pH Miracle'. I don't want to sound like a salesman but it's fantastic.

All The Best.

 

[Cool_as_fcuk]

Maybe, becuase we're the most intelligent life we figured that meat tastes nicer when it's cooked, and since then we've lost 'the power' to be able to safely eat it raw... that's what I'm hoping anyway

 

[goldmember]

actually, we could eat meat raw if they weren't harvested in such close quarters, breeding diseases like there's no tomorrow. Did you know that one in three chickens have salmonella? Do you think that stat was true before we started farming them? I think not. I have no problem eating raw cow, in fact, I always order my steak "black and blue" which is a step below raw and I order a couple pounds at that. So I don't think you are correct on that.

Also, our teeth have evolved to be less carnivorous because somewhere along the lines, carnivorous teeth were not needed...either in a time when raw flesh was scarce or we developed tools that made it easier. Wild animals have to attack the whole animal, which makes it difficult especially around the ribcage area. With a knife (or a primitive tool similar) makes this much easier. Live flesh doesn't have microorganisms (atleast in appreciabe amounts) so eating the flesh raw is not a problem. If you ate a two week old piece of raw flesh (as most sold in supermarkets is) you sure as hell better cook that!

I just can't believe in the vegan theory that humans aren't carnivores! Even if you try to justify by saying that it is cruel, even God Himself says in the book of Genesis that he grants us all animals and plants that bear seeds and green plants, etc... There is no way to justify us NOT being carnivores! I have nothing against being vegan if you choose to do so, but it is unfair to hold it agianst everyone else!

 

[goldmember]

Ah, thank you for that information on that! That seems very useful. I didn't see this on the post I just made above, so please excuse the lack of praise.

I guess it was a waste of money. Especially because I bought it a second time after the first one I thought broke. Heh.

I am of course doing the cut that you say. Although, the only fat I am getting is from black strap molassus, brewers yeast and flaxseed oil. Seems to balance it all out though.

Thank you again for your information.

Well, atleast keep the scale for being...a scale. The blackstrap molasses (as long as it is unrefined and unsulphured) is a great source of iron and B vits. However, the liver tabs would be an even BETTER source of iron and especially B12...it also is chock full of vital amino acids and enzymes all sorts of goodies. I would highly recommend it. I would avoid soy (unless you decide to take an estrogen blocker--not an aromatase blocker, but an estrogen receptor blocker). Good luck!

 

[TomdW]

actually, we could eat meat raw if they weren't harvested in such close quarters, breeding diseases like there's no tomorrow. Did you know that one in three chickens have salmonella? Do you think that stat was true before we started farming them? I think not. I have no problem eating raw cow, in fact, I always order my steak "black and blue" which is a step below raw and I order a couple pounds at that. So I don't think you are correct on that.

Also, our teeth have evolved to be less carnivorous because somewhere along the lines, carnivorous teeth were not needed...either in a time when raw flesh was scarce or we developed tools that made it easier. Wild animals have to attack the whole animal, which makes it difficult especially around the ribcage area. With a knife (or a primitive tool similar) makes this much easier. Live flesh doesn't have microorganisms (atleast in appreciabe amounts) so eating the flesh raw is not a problem. If you ate a two week old piece of raw flesh (as most sold in supermarkets is) you sure as hell better cook that!

I just can't believe in the vegan theory that humans aren't carnivores! Even if you try to justify by saying that it is cruel, even God Himself says in the book of Genesis that he grants us all animals and plants that bear seeds and green plants, etc... There is no way to justify us NOT being carnivores! I have nothing against being vegan if you choose to do so, but it is unfair to hold it agianst everyone else!

Good post. It's nice to hear the other side of the story in a calm and informative way.

I choose to eat the way that I do simply because I seem to feel better and it helps my skin condition (psoriasis) not because I don't want to kill animals.That is simply an added bonus. I also believe that vegetables have all the necessary nutrients etc, that my body needs. I don't however think that those that choose to eat meat are somehow bad and I don't hold it against them in any way. I am just expressing my opinions here.

I'd like to address one commonly held misunderstanding about the vegan diet.

Protein. We should look at how much protein we really need in our diets. Some resent research shows that we only need about 25 grams of protein per day. The average Westerner that eats meat and eggs gets about 3-5 times that amount (75-125g). Our bodies are on average only 7% protein (70% water, 20% fat, 1-2% vitamins and minerals and 0.5-1% sugar). Most meats are 20 to 25% protein. They therefore provide much more than the human body requires. It makes good sense to eat in proportion to what your body is made of.

Another point is that spinach is higher in amino acids (the building blocks of protein) than steak. Cow's milk too is far too protein rich for our bodies. As an example look at milk that is designed for the human being - breast milk. Breast milk is about 5% protein (some sources put it even lower at about 2%). It's meant to be the sole source of nutrition for a human who is growing faster than at any other time of their life, more than doubling their body mass within the first year. If we really needed highly concentrated sources of protein for good growth and health our mother's milk would contain it.

One more point here. Look at some of the biggest and strongest land animals, the gorilla and the elephant. They eat no meat. They are, in fact, vegans. They are obviously not in need of any more protein. What do they live on.....leaves and grass.

If you really want to drink cow's milk then go and suck on a cow's udder. Goldmember, I can understand you eating a raw steak but this is a bit more extreme.

 

[kfarrelldba]

Now I'm not nitpicking here. Anybody willing to better their body and anyone trying gets an A+ from me. But from the pics, I'm wondering how you guys can give him such a low body fat % estimate when there is obviously what seems to me to be a large gut present. Are these before pictures? Where are the abs?

Again, I'm not picking on the guy, just curious. Keep up the good work man.

Kevin

 

[Jamian]

Now I'm not nitpicking here. Anybody willing to better their body and anyone trying gets an A+ from me. But from the pics, I'm wondering how you guys can give him such a low body fat % estimate when there is obviously what seems to me to be a large gut present. Are these before pictures? Where are the abs?

Again, I'm not picking on the guy, just curious. Keep up the good work man.

Kevin

I think I will have to disagree with you there. The only picture in which I have somewhat of a gut is the second one, and that took more lighting to be shown. A large gut would be a man with 25-30% body fat and a waist bigger then 35.

My waist is about 32 inches and since my upper abs are clearly visable, these in conjunction with each other puts me around 16%-17% body fat. The body fat range I want to get in is 8-12%. The disirable waist size would probably be in the 27-29 inch range, depending on the amount of muscle in the abs and obliques.

I think the conflict here is what you think of low. Although, it depends on how you look at it, 12% or below is generally the amount of body fat considered in the low range. It might be more or less depending on your experiences.

 

[9cyclops9]

Protein. We should look at how much protein we really need in our diets. Some resent research shows that we only need about 25 grams of protein per day. The average Westerner that eats meat and eggs gets about 3-5 times that amount (75-125g). Our bodies are on average only 7% protein (70% water, 20% fat, 1-2% vitamins and minerals and 0.5-1% sugar). Most meats are 20 to 25% protein. They therefore provide much more than the human body requires. It makes good sense to eat in proportion to what your body is made of.

There's a difference in what we need and what is optimal. I recently read about a man that survived on only popcorn for many months, maybe even over a year but I can't remember exactly. Obviously, the body can make do with the bare minimum, but that doesn't mean that eating the bare minimum is the best way to go. Especially since we're talking bodybuilding.

Sorry for my rant earlier. Vegans really bug me, especially "moral vegans," but perhaps I should have kept to myself.

 

[Jamian]

There's a difference in what we need and what is optimal. I recently read about a man that survived on only popcorn for many months, maybe even over a year but I can't remember exactly. Obviously, the body can make do with the bare minimum, but that doesn't mean that eating the bare minimum is the best way to go. Especially since we're talking bodybuilding.

Sorry for my rant earlier. Vegans really bug me, especially "moral vegans," but perhaps I should have kept to myself.

I ignored the rest of the post for some reason. I only looked at your one sentence on liver tabs.

You have your opinions and you are free to express them. I have no grudges against you for that.

And no, I don't drink whey.

I really guess I prefer not to eat animals because I just love them too much. It would be like eating another human to me.

Of course I love the damn taste. But I also love ice cream cake and candy. I'm better off being vegan because most of the non-vegan things are bad for me. Of course, not all of them are, but in my experience they mostly are. And non-vegan food is usually in the 2.5g to around 10g range with the amount of saturated fat, which adds up pretty quickly.

To me it's just easier to be vegan healthwise, and it helps the animals.

 

[Jamian]

New pictures of me. These are more clear.

They are nude, so heed that warning.
Well, if you're on this site, you should probably expect 90% of the pictures will be nude of course anyway.

Was a bit unsure if nude pictures were allowed in this section or not... but whatever, they have to do with bodybuilding.

 

[prince Albert]

Whats your routine look like?

 

[TomdW]

Those pictures look totally different. You seem to be in good shape at least with a pretty good amount of muscle. Keep it up mate.

 

[kfarrelldba]

Yeah, the second set of pics look much better. The first ones, look like you have a tire around your waist, but maybe it's just the pics. The arms are looking good. Bigger than mine. But I've only been really lifting 1 month.
Now I'm getting 5 dental implants and will be on a juice diet for a month or so. So so much for bulking up

 

[goldmember]

Yeah, the second set of pics look much better. The first ones, look like you have a tire around your waist, but maybe it's just the pics. The arms are looking good. Bigger than mine. But I've only been really lifting 1 month.
Now I'm getting 5 dental implants and will be on a juice diet for a month or so. So so much for bulking up

you can still bulk up on shakes! Get a blender that crushes ice and have fun!