The End...or the Beginning

Another thread made me realize I think about this question more than I wish I did, but certain events in my life have captured my attention.

What do you believe happens if anything after you die? Not what is it like to die because that is another question all together. Dying is a part of life. Death is unto itself its own opposite. There just cannot be anything like it in my opinion. I'd like to believe in an afterlife and see that all this time human beings and all our civilizations weren't wrong. I do believe in fact, but I have much doubt. Maybe it's that I don't put much value into my own life and that I don't feel significant that makes me doubt. Why us? Why should we be so special as to be alone and cursed in such a way in all the universe that we have some form of knowledge? I mean what else makes me wonder about the idea of an afterlife is even if you become this great leader or person that changed the outcome of our history or helped so many our accomplishments like the physical things of this world will cease to exist when this world ends. Isn't it likely this world will follow the fate of so many other planets in other solar systems? I think it's pretty likely. But even so the fate of our history and existence more importantly is in our hands. So what happens is because of our own actions even if you believe in a higher being, which I do, having the ability to intervene in some ways. So, perhaps it is in the idea of an afterlife that we see our escape from this sometimes trivial, gruesome, and merciless life. We witnessed it early on and recognized life for what it truly was. It was about survival and everything it entailed back then, which ultimately has lead us to the present. We still have our questions, our answers, and our doubts, but life is the journey we both hide from and attempt to conquer. Some cowar before the questions and doubts and some attempt to perhaps vainly understand everything there is to know. I think it is in our finiteness that we face our dillemma. We can't see time, but recognize it universally as the idea of time. We keep track of it. We use it to record significant things, but what we don't attempt is to count down time unless it is leading up to something of importance to us. But we never like to countdown in life if it is to remind us of the ominous and imminent. We marvel at our own significance and accomplishments. It is obvious we are selfish beings. We can't help it we only know what it is to be. I am not you and you are not me. The nature of the human being is to try to understand. We have our questions, our answers, and our endless doubts, but we respond to such things through rejection, acceptance, and in those two a denial sometimes is the root of the response. But maybe it is in these types of responses that we created the idea of an afterlife. Every single culture ever has dealt with death in some form.

Maybe the idea was created as a way to deal or to keep hope of survival. I mean even my dog "understands" what it means for something to have died. The wimpers next to a dead pup can't mean something that different than what humans mean when they moarn or cry. I'll add more later. This isn't a topic anyone can close the book on especially not in one post. But what I must say is that I believe in an afterlife, but it's hard for me to. I don't see what the point of this life is without an afterlife, yet I don't see the point of this life with an afterlife. Whatever the answer is we all will find out eventually. Lately I've just thought perhaps death is like before you were born. No one can say they remember that. Then again that fashion designer claims to have been the person who broke King Tuts or one of the Egyptian Kings necks in another life and claims he saw it one night in a vision of sorts when he was a child... Anyway even if you claim something as absurd I don't believe you can recall anything years before so maybe that's what it is. Nothingness. Your energy goes back into the earth and eventually the universe. ??? One last thing for now... since it is an idea does that make it enough for us to simply apply the term reality to it and thus it is a possibility and therefore it is so because we believe in it? Or does the possibility lie in the uncertainty of it? Is it in the faith or is it the unknown? Does it exist for you because of both?
 
Energy can be changed and it can be moved but it cannot be destroyed. Our thoughts and emotions and memories are made of energy. When we die, where does that energy go? Does our sentience maybe keep that energy in a pattern when death releases it from the body? Is God the ultimate self-aware energy pattern?

Too much Star Trek, maybe...? :D
 
Were born with innate knowledge of right and wrong, its completely visible in young children this could not have come from evolution, we are born with an innate attraction to spirituality and religion, the reason why religion has been around so long, and you could consider our culture now very "spiritual" just not very "religious" tho :(

Finding the right religion lies in the facts, the real facts. Not the facts mixed in with half truths etc. I personally believe Christianity, and I think the reason it gets the most crap is because it is the true way. Atheists should be there own testament to Christianity. It is so detested because it confronts men, which are basically evil (all men are), and gives them the ultimatum to suBathmateit and change their ways, or not to and face eternal torment. People want to be their own leaders, they dont want to feel "crutched" or "weak", and they certainly dont want to suBathmateit to something higher, that is one reason Christianity gets so much crap....

Just my opinion, believe what you want, and we will see where we end up, this is my new online motto, if we met in real life I might actually try to get through to some of you. Until then, do your own unbiased research and come up with your own conclusions.
 
Not trying to change the subject here but I would like to know the answer to this question from a religious point of view.

If Christianity is the true way, what about all the people living long before Christianity. Were they all sent to hell?? Because if there was no Jesus for them to accept into their hearts how would they make it to heaven?

I believe in higher power if you want to call it that but I see it more as an energy source like what Kong was saying. In this vast universe to which we haven't even scratched the surface on, to truly believe that we are the only life form around is what I have a hard time grasping. Also to believe that the supreme being is only watching us and sent himself down in the form of a man I have a harder time grasping. But if that was the case it was the #1 failed experiment. I have an easier time believing that there is a supreme being but we are not governed by it. It is the creation of everything and we are governed by past creations that are far more advanced than we are. These successful beings were given the opportunity to call themselves gods if you will and to govern us. To me that would make more sense as it would include the possibility of everything out there that our telescope cannot see.

Also ancient African tribes also pass down knowledge of supreme beings governing us. Who visited at the start long before there was religions. They are often ignored because your history book tells you Africans have no knowledge. Funny enough the roots of Mystery Religions also believe that we are governed by supreme beings who visited at the beginning passing knowledge to those seeking it. All of the people heavily involved in mystery babylon religions interbreed as well keeping their genes and knowledge selective.
 
sephin said:
Were born with innate knowledge of right and wrong, its completely visible in young children this could not have come from evolution, we are born with an innate attraction to spirituality and religion, the reason why religion has been around so long, and you could consider our culture now very "spiritual" just not very "religious" tho :(

Finding the right religion lies in the facts, the real facts. Not the facts mixed in with half truths etc. I personally believe Christianity, and I think the reason it gets the most crap is because it is the true way. Atheists should be there own testament to Christianity. It is so detested because it confronts men, which are basically evil (all men are), and gives them the ultimatum to suBathmateit and change their ways, or not to and face eternal torment. People want to be their own leaders, they dont want to feel "crutched" or "weak", and they certainly dont want to suBathmateit to something higher, that is one reason Christianity gets so much crap....

Just my opinion, believe what you want, and we will see where we end up, this is my new online motto, if we met in real life I might actually try to get through to some of you. Until then, do your own unbiased research and come up with your own conclusions.

In reference to an innate sense of right and wrong; I disagree. From the time you are born you are thrown into a given culture, and influenced by those within. Everything is learned. For instance, those children who are never loved at birth, do not learn these things and end up emotionally detached and unaware of right and wrong.

I will agree that some children have a "innate" attraction to spirituality, but again, this is if they are brought up that way.

I will also agree that it takes a lot to humble yourself and accept being labeled "crutched" or weak for practicing a religion. I commend you for that.

I don't know where you are from, but I find the younger demographic (which I belong to) to be quite un-spiritual, and like you said, not religious.
 
kausion_420 said:
Not trying to change the subject here but I would like to know the answer to this question from a religious point of view.

If Christianity is the true way, what about all the people living long before Christianity. Were they all sent to hell?? Because if there was no Jesus for them to accept into their hearts how would they make it to heaven?

I believe in higher power if you want to call it that but I see it more as an energy source like what Kong was saying. In this vast universe to which we haven't even scratched the surface on, to truly believe that we are the only life form around is what I have a hard time grasping. Also to believe that the supreme being is only watching us and sent himself down in the form of a man I have a harder time grasping. But if that was the case it was the #1 failed experiment. I have an easier time believing that there is a supreme being but we are not governed by it. It is the creation of everything and we are governed by past creations that are far more advanced than we are. These successful beings were given the opportunity to call themselves gods if you will and to govern us. To me that would make more sense as it would include the possibility of everything out there that our telescope cannot see.

Also ancient African tribes also pass down knowledge of supreme beings governing us. Who visited at the start long before there was religions. They are often ignored because your history book tells you Africans have no knowledge. Funny enough the roots of Mystery Religions also believe that we are governed by supreme beings who visited at the beginning passing knowledge to those seeking it. All of the people heavily involved in mystery babylon religions interbreed as well keeping their genes and knowledge selective.


In reference to your question, I would say that most Christian's would say that if you have not heard the message of Jesus, then you are basically exempt. But once you hear it, then you are cursed to hell if you do not accept it. Fun stuff huh?
 
That take on the innate sense of right and wrong is true, but it isn't true either. There are some people that even at an early age are just fucked up and do things without remorse or at least show signs of feeling anything remotely like it. But back to the idea of things. Like the idea of an object really...like energy as it is known cannot be destroyed...and it is similar in that the idea exists in our minds...we know what an object such as a table is or what purpose that it serves...but if there were no tables the idea of its function still exists but that would mean that it only exists because we exist and therefore there is some form of relation or equality between what we are made of or what we can define ourselves as, which are the physiological and psychological aspects...these things interact with one another the brain best represents what I mean...it is neurological and that means it has a psychological aspect in addition to a physical one... but that brings me to my biggest curiosity...if reality is an idea and exists because of our sentience/mind then that would leave the possibility that with our death everything, all that we do not know and do know...would cease to be or at least in reality because our energy goes through a transformation or just goes through another medium...of course I am talking of not just when one person dies but when everyone has died that has ever lived...it's really interesting to think about this...I wish I could understand things the way people like Einstein or Newton did.

And for another question to stir things up a bit...If you could choose one person to discuss this topic with who would it be? The person of course does not have to be living. I'd choose Plato. I'd like to pick his brain. Of course if you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior and want to pick him that's obviously cool too. I didn't think of him or God or anything like that. I still choose Plato over them because I want someone with the same kind of perspective on life. I think if a god exists then he'd know obviously everything and Jesus...I don't know...I wouldn't ask him. Who had a life like his? I think he knew what his purpose was and what awaited him...what he had to do IT for...so I just don't know...I think I'd rather pick someone not related to religion in any way to discuss this with. Of course you can't tip toe your way around religion when discussing such a topic though...
 
philadelph said:
In reference to your question, I would say that most Christian's would say that if you have not heard the message of Jesus, then you are basically exempt. But once you hear it, then you are cursed to hell if you do not accept it. Fun stuff huh?

lol ya I see what you are saying. Also just like I said earlier this is why I think religion is for the prison mind.

The reason I feel Christians get the flak as someone mentioned earlier doesn't have to be because it is the true way. That could be it possibly I dunno. The reason I think it gets the flak is because what other religious beliefs can you think of that are pushed on people more than Christian beliefs. "My religion is the truth, anything else whether documented or not is false". "You must do exactly this and act this way or you are sinning and satanic". "To get to heaven you must watch your every move because the lord will punish you". "But with all this being said... the lord loves you".

God is all seeing and all knowing correct..?

So when God sent Jesus down to earth he knew he would be denied because of basic human instinct right?

But if God sent him down anyways it means he would have done it in spite which would mean he had a conscience right?

If he did come down to save mankind and get them to love each other that was quite the difficult task. It's hard enough getting people to think for themselves let alone love each other as a whole.
 
philadelph said:
In reference to an innate sense of right and wrong; I disagree. From the time you are born you are thrown into a given culture, and influenced by those within. Everything is learned. For instance, those children who are never loved at birth, do not learn these things and end up emotionally detached and unaware of right and wrong.

I will agree that some children have a "innate" attraction to spirituality, but again, this is if they are brought up that way.

I will also agree that it takes a lot to humble yourself and accept being labeled "crutched" or weak for practicing a religion. I commend you for that.

I don't know where you are from, but I find the younger demographic (which I belong to) to be quite un-spiritual, and like you said, not religious.

Lol, you caught that too...it was the inspiration for my post on Sephin's thoughts. Also good and bad and the wickedness of man...yeah of course...it's human nature...the law of human nature...we are constantly trying to avoid behaving the way we know we ought to and then when we are called on it we think up excuses...I believe Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis explains it in a bit better way lol, but I just thought to myself you know No...we are not all born with an innate sense of right and wrong and even so long before we become adults do we practice the opposite of what we preach...I mean innocence is found in children yes, but it isn't always the adults taking it away from them by showing them the wrong ways...a child punching another in the face until the child is unconscious I'd say is a good example of a child's innocence being lost or forfeited.

And to your point on the young demographic here I agree. I think a good many of us are more materialistic and self interested than anything else especially more than willing to believe in the kind of sacrafice religion requires. This country worships money...our government uses religion and religious people's concerns all the time for votes...and it's not to further instill a kind of religious or spirtual force into the foundation of its youth, but to continue lining the pockets of the few at the very top. I believe in God, but I don't practice religion. So am I in the majority here? I don't care.
 
Lol, yeah Phila...

hey I just re-read what I began with and man even I can see I should have dropped the table discussion for the end...or omitted it or something...lol I was like whoa people are going to be like what the hell.....

I don't know man. I just want some answers and I just don't know if even Pope can help me!!!!
 
iwant8inches said:
I don't know man. I just want some answers and I just don't know if even Pope can help me!!!!

I am in basically the same boat you are... But I am in no rush for answers. I believe they will just come when they do. I am still a young buck of 21 years, so I have some time (hopefully).
 
When engaged in these conversings, I think it is helpful to know where everyone is coming from.

I was raised in the midwest in a Baptist church. My father and especially mother are very Christian people, although still somewhat open-minded. At one point I did believe in the glory of God, and considered myself a Christian.
When I was about 14-17 I really just stopped believing. Not for any certain reason. Through my college years I have really had very mixed thoughts on religion and the spiritual world. At one point a may be having athiestic thoughts, then at one point I even went to a few bible studies. Right now I am just floating along...
 
philadelph said:
When engaged in these conversings, I think it is helpful to know where everyone is coming from.

I was raised in the midwest in a Baptist church. My father and especially mother are very Christian people, although still somewhat open-minded. At one point I did believe in the glory of God, and considered myself a Christian.
When I was about 14-17 I really just stopped believing. Not for any certain reason. Through my college years I have really had very mixed thoughts on religion and the spiritual world. At one point a may be having athiestic thoughts, then at one point I even went to a few bible studies. Right now I am just floating along...

I was raised in a Protestant Christian family, with a father who later converted to Orthodox Christianity because he had endured childhood traumas from living under a very strict and suffocating Protestant roof (it's a surprise he didn't turn away from the church completely, being a very intelligent man and a university professor). He isn't deeply religious in spite of his connection to the church- as I understand he mainly joined to escape the oppressive burden of sin of the Protestant church, and also to be able to sing in the orthodox men's choir. My mom was born a Protestant, but she doesn't go to church. I think she has some belief in an afterlife, but she doesn't accept most of what Christianity teaches.
Basically, I grew up believing in god up until 14-17 also, at which point I started to question the validity of what the church taught, and what it represented. It took me a few years to "clear my head" of all the programming that was installed within, and I finally feel my vision isn't blurred any longer. Giving up on the fear of hell and the constant questioning of the value of my life in God's eyes has been the single most uplifting thing that has ever happened to me.

A question: can the human mind TRULY comprehend something as infinite as eternal non-existance? What if there is nothing on the other side? Every last trace of our existance and everything we accomplished in this life is gone forever, only to live on in the hearts of those who we were close to in life. A personal end of the universe for the one who dies. I can't seem to wrap my mind around the possibility of there being absolutely no continuation of the consciousness or spirit after death. It's just too mind boggling.
I guess the closest thing to a state of not existing on any level would be a very deep sleep. But is it really such a terrible thing? If you think about it, most of life's pain stems from the thirst of life, and the need to improve the status quo and accomplish this and that- to leave a mark. After you die, there will be no more thirst, and no more need. You will cease to desire anything, and be free to slumber in peace throughout eternity. That doesn't really sound all that bad once you think about it.
 
Just my 2 cents:
I was raised Christian, no particular denomination, but I guess I would say Baptist, if I had to classify myself by such ideological definitions. I've attended Baptist, Pentacostal, Church of Christ, Methodist churches and read up on many other denominations and religions in general. Personally, IMO, "religious denominations" are simply man-made methods od grouping people together (i.e. black or white or American or Chinese), and I don't really buy into that. I do believe in the Bible as the man-written, divinely-inspired Word of God, and that is my "religion." I personally don't need the Pope or the Reverend Billy Bob Bodacious on channel 29 telling me what the Bible says... I can read it (without spin or corruption) myself.

Now as for beliefs... People have their own feelings on this, but personally I believe you h ave to make a conscious decision where your faith lies. I don't think you can just float along and allow yourself, and your beliefs concerning something as important as your eternal soul, to be impacted and pushed/pulled by the messed up views of society (and that includes the aforementioned Rev. Billy Bob). You have to make a conscious decision to read about things and decide what makes sense to you in your mind and heart. If you are floating along, waiting for someone to show you indisputable proof that Christianity or Islam or Buddhism is the truth, you are in for a long wait. That is where faith comes in, the conscious choice. I have made a conscious decision that I accept Christianity as the truth. Faith in the unprovable sustains my beliefs.

This may not make any sense to some, but take it or leave it. That's just my point of view.
 
Shafty said:
I was raised in a Protestant Christian family, with a father who later converted to Orthodox Christianity because he had endured childhood traumas from living under a very strict and suffocating Protestant roof (it's a surprise he didn't turn away from the church completely, being a very intelligent man and a university professor). He isn't deeply religious in spite of his connection to the church- as I understand he mainly joined to escape the oppressive burden of sin of the Protestant church, and also to be able to sing in the orthodox men's choir. My mom was born a Protestant, but she doesn't go to church. I think she has some belief in an afterlife, but she doesn't accept most of what Christianity teaches.
Basically, I grew up believing in god up until 14-17 also, at which point I started to question the validity of what the church taught, and what it represented. It took me a few years to "clear my head" of all the programming that was installed within, and I finally feel my vision isn't blurred any longer. Giving up on the fear of hell and the constant questioning of the value of my life in God's eyes has been the single most uplifting thing that has ever happened to me.

A question: can the human mind TRULY comprehend something as infinite as eternal non-existance? What if there is nothing on the other side? Every last trace of our existance and everything we accomplished in this life is gone forever, only to live on in the hearts of those who we were close to in life. A personal end of the universe for the one who dies. I can't seem to wrap my mind around the possibility of there being absolutely no continuation of the consciousness or spirit after death. It's just too mind boggling.
I guess the closest thing to a state of not existing on any level would be a very deep sleep. But is it really such a terrible thing? If you think about it, most of life's pain stems from the thirst of life, and the need to improve the status quo and accomplish this and that- to leave a mark. After you die, there will be no more thirst, and no more need. You will cease to desire anything, and be free to slumber in peace throughout eternity. That doesn't really sound all that bad once you think about it.

Shafty...I always enjoy reading your posts...now I'll just wipe my chin there and step away from your cock...lol

There has been interesting findings in some form of math that had been thought lost forever...there was a documentary on how it was lost and who had it (it was in a book or something like that and bought at an auction) and what it meant, but being the complete idiot I am in math I had no idea what the hell was being said. I watched it all but it was about a year ago probably or close to that so I can't remember what it was called...I'll look into it tomorrow, but the findings were supposed to help understand like trigonometry or the most advanced form of trigonometry known to man. I forget, but something was brought up about how it could begin to help greatly in understanding the vastness or infiniteness of the universe. I want to look that up and post it in a new thread. It was either on Discovery Channel or the History Channel or one of those channels. Man I wish I could remember things better. My memory is terrible when it comes to things like this.
 
iwant8inches said:
Shafty...I always enjoy reading your posts...now I'll just wipe my chin there and step away from your cock...lol

There has been interesting findings in some form of math that had been thought lost forever...there was a documentary on how it was lost and who had it (it was in a book or something like that and bought at an auction) and what it meant, but being the complete idiot I am in math I had no idea what the hell was being said. I watched it all but it was about a year ago probably or close to that so I can't remember what it was called...I'll look into it tomorrow, but the findings were supposed to help understand like trigonometry or the most advanced form of trigonometry known to man. I forget, but something was brought up about how it could begin to help greatly in understanding the vastness or infiniteness of the universe. I want to look that up and post it in a new thread. It was either on Discovery Channel or the History Channel or one of those channels. Man I wish I could remember things better. My memory is terrible when it comes to things like this.

Thanks for the great BJ! :D
Seriously though, if you do find what you were referring to, do post it here. It's always enjoyable to rack one's brain with the bigger questions of our human existance, and the mysteries of the universe. BTW, I posted a link to the 'Glass Worms' of Mars in Kausion's thread about the possibility of life on Mars. Have you seen these before, and if so, what is your take on them?
 
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