NeXus said:Dude, fuck Nader. He's a good consumer activist but he would be an awful President. Im so sick of the rhetoric that Dems and Repubs are the same evil. That argument has no basis and is a old fable.
There's nothing wrong with either party, but there are cronies in both. But the Right wing is notorious for pandering to oil and energy giants like Exxon Mobil, and Bush even got about a half million dollars from Enron, and money personally from Ken Lay.
Anybody supercedes Bush in just about every policy. Even Kerry.
slayman said:how does the arguement have no basis if they are both being paid off by corporations
NeXus said:Even the Green Party wants nothing to do with him.
bigbutnottoo said:Well, if you want to vote 3rd Party and are more of a Constitutionalist than a Communist, vote Libertarian.
NeXus said:Who is considered a libertarian? B/c I know you say that libertarians and liberals are very different."
The Libertarian Party is the 3rd largest organized party in the US. They did finish 5th in the last election because the Greens and Reforms ran celebrity candidates, but the Greens and Reforms have less established bases. Though I think the Greens are doing a good job in gaining. The LP holds more total offices than all other 3rd parties combined though most are lower level nonpartisan positions.
Libertarians themselves are very diverse. There are Libertarians for Peace, For War, Pro Choice, Pro-Life,etc
One of the mottos actually is "Pro-choice-on everything." Meaning that people generally know best how to choose to live their own lives.
As far as in comparison to modern liberals, Libertarians are considered "classical liberals." Some issues they may agree with Democrats, others Republicans. Some issues neither party seem to support, but Libertarians do. For example: medical marijuana and drug decriminalization. This is an issue I think Democrats could appeal to people with, but they wont touch it for the most part. in fact most of the pro-marijuana Governors i know of have been Republicans. Republicans are "conservative", but IMO Democrats seem to be even more conservative is some ways. I dont see them taking firm stances on many issues as they want to have everything both ways. Of course republicans do the same.
Basically Libertarians support the Constitution and believe that the people govern themselves and the Constitution is a document that limits the reach of the government, not the other way around. That was the intent and spirit of America and things have flipped as government has expanded. Libertarian believe in personal AND economic freedom. Property rights ARE Civil rights, etc
Some specific policies that are libertarian in nature and most libertarians support:
Freedom with Responsibility/Personal responsibility
Drug legalization
Ending IRS and looking for alternative plans such as flat tax or sales tax ( with poverty credits)
"Victimless " crimes are not crimes and should not be illegal
We should not be the world's police and have our troops stationed in every country of the world, But we should have a very strong national defense as that is one of the few things the Federal government is authorized and needed to do.
The appeal for liberals is mostly those who support true social freedoms, and for right wingers the more economic aspects. But IMO most Republicans and Democrats are beholden to special interests and big supporters of welfare. They just vary on who they think should receive special favors.
bigbutnottoo said:NeXus said:Who is considered a libertarian? B/c I know you say that libertarians and liberals are very different."
Basically Libertarians support the Constitution and believe that the people govern themselves and the Constitution is a document that limits the reach of the government, not the other way around. That was the intent and spirit of America and things have flipped as government has expanded. Libertarian believe in personal AND economic freedom. Property rights ARE Civil rights, etc
Some specific policies that are libertarian in nature and most libertarians support:
Freedom with Responsibility/Personal responsibility
Drug legalization
Ending IRS and looking for alternative plans such as flat tax or sales tax ( with poverty credits)
"Victimless " crimes are not crimes and should not be illegal
We should not be the world's police and have our troops stationed in every country of the world, But we should have a very strong national defense as that is one of the few things the Federal government is authorized and needed to do.
Great description of the Libertarian ideology. Especially on the national defense side. The libertarians have by far the most reasoned approach on how to defend america and keep it free from foreign control. For example making sure our nuclear weapons are in top condition, and building a very advanced missile defense system. And also not pissing other countries off as a start, or as the founding fathers said 'honest friendship with all nations.' Let the rest of the world fight each other to death, they seem quite good at that.
Millionman you outright described libertarianism and what the founding fathers were saying exactly.
I have been a libertarian since I was a young boy. I just always liked the notion of freedom. Freedom to watch ���� if you want, or not if you don't want too. And freedom from being forced to do things. Including being pushed around by the government thats supposed to protect you.
And as bigbutnottoo said, there is many types of libertarians. Infact a lot of the debate is where does my freedoms stop and yours begin? Or how best should the government defend america. And how should the government justice system work. To me that is what the political debate should be, what would give us the most freedom. Not who can take away freedom the fastest. Do you want democrats who raise spending at 8% a year and will take away some of your free speech, or republicans who raise it at 7.9% a year but on the downside will take away more of your free speech.
The big parties calculations at this point are what would get us the most votes. Not what would be best for the american people. I don't happen to agree with the greens on many issues, and I disagree with the conservative party on many issues, but they are telling you what they think would be best honestly.
Some people say you are throwing your vote away if you vote third party. I couldn't disagree more, if you vote for democrat or republican who will do the exact same thing on 99% of issues you are throwing your vote away. Remember how bush promised to open up the economy and cut government? Seems a long 4 years ago that he said that. Or reform the social security that is going or already is bankrupt?
randolf said:Some people say you are throwing your vote away if you vote third party. I couldn't disagree more, if you vote for democrat or republican who will do the exact same thing on 99% of issues you are throwing your vote away. Remember how bush promised to open up the economy and cut government? Seems a long 4 years ago that he said that. Or reform the social security that is going or already is bankrupt?
bigbutnottoo said:Exactly.
If I DONT vote on principle then I AM wasting my vote. The lesser of 2 evils is still evil.
NeXus said:Who are some canidiates who are from the libertarian party? How are liberals different from libertarians? ie. specifics like tax reform, foreign policy, corporate regulation, offshore banking, exporting jobs, Religion in Gov....
The only Gov I know for pot legalization was Jesse Ventura and that was after he served. I think Dems or Liberals are more likely to be pro-legal, b/c they're not in the pocket as much as Repubs, ie. George W. Bush. Thats why pots not legal, b/c of pharmeacutical companies, and alcohol and tobacco companies. Bost mostly drug companies. And a few Religious dicks who are fine with driving home drunk, like that bishop who killed a guy while drunk.
To me, principal is doing every thing possible to get a degenerate moron, crackpot out of office.
NeXus said:When you say economic freedom, do you think that people should be able to operate business with out regulations? like tax, environmental standards....etc.
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