Vote Nader

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"Vote Nader"
#1
both of the major parties canidates are terrible in my opinion. id prefer Bush over Kerry if i had to choose, but i cant vote for Bush with a clear conscience.
 
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"Vote Nader"
#3
Dude, fuck Nader. He's a good consumer activist but he would be an awful President. Im so sick of the rhetoric that Dems and Repubs are the same evil. That argument has no basis and is a old fable.

There's nothing wrong with either party, but there are cronies in both. But the Right wing is notorious for pandering to oil and energy giants like Exxon Mobil, and Bush even got about a half million dollars from Enron, and money personally from Ken Lay.

Anybody supercedes Bush in just about every policy. Even Kerry.
 
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"Vote Nader"
#4
NeXus said:
Dude, fuck Nader. He's a good consumer activist but he would be an awful President. Im so sick of the rhetoric that Dems and Repubs are the same evil. That argument has no basis and is a old fable.

There's nothing wrong with either party, but there are cronies in both. But the Right wing is notorious for pandering to oil and energy giants like Exxon Mobil, and Bush even got about a half million dollars from Enron, and money personally from Ken Lay.

Anybody supercedes Bush in just about every policy. Even Kerry.
how does the arguement have no basis if they are both being paid off by corporations
 
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"Vote Nader"
#5
I voted for Nader in 2000, and I'm going to vote for him again...

unless ofcourse McCain jumps on a split ticket with Kerry... I'd go for that.
 
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"Vote Nader"
#6
slayman said:
how does the arguement have no basis if they are both being paid off by corporations

Give me a specific example where Kerry pandered to a coporation b/c of capaign contributions . I could give you a list for Bu$h if you want it.

I like John McCain even though Im pro-choice. He's a good, true honest Republican, and I respect that. You should vote for Kerry just for the way the Bush Attack Dogs went after John McCain in 2000 and questioned his patriotism, despite the fact that John was in a Vietnamese prison for 6 years serving his country. Bush's daddy got him out, so he could go cheer lead for Andover.

I'd vote a Kerry/McCain ticket no doubt about it. Nader has no chance of ever winning, not b/c of Dems and Repubs, but b/c he's an AWFUL public speaker and cant work with anybody. Even the Green Party wants nothing to do with him.
 
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"Vote Nader"
#7
NeXus said:
Even the Green Party wants nothing to do with him.
the reason he isnt a green party canidate this year is because the convention is being held in like june to decide if they'll have a presidential canidate. Nader said that wouldnt be enough time to get on all the ballots so he ran as an independant.

I thought he was a good public speaker from what ive heard from him. He has a great record and he is clean. I think it might have been GM who had private investigors dig up his history when Nader was pushing for car safety so they could discredit him, but they found nothing to use against him.
 

millionman

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"Vote Nader"
#9
Honestly, if you want to think about it in all totality. Politics in general are corrupt it doesn't matter if it's the local government deciding zoning policies, or if it's Bush persuing the Senate for War. Different on the levels of effect it has on the population, but the point is valid. I wonder if there is anything we can do anymore, cause it's all rambling nonsense just to get a vote, and the depth of corruption can't even be imagined on those of us on the outside looking in. Does anyone remember Watergate? The people of this country were so shocked to hear that the break in ever took place and the cover up ran so deep, and the people were shocked that our great President Nixon would stoop to such levels. Imagine that the most powerful man in the world wanted to stay in power and was willing to do whatever it took to keep it, Hydromaxmmm let me think....not so hard to imagine now is it. Politics are rotten to the core. I'm not a disenfranchised youth either, just in regards to politics there is good and bad, the bad sticks out though, and it has a blinding effect.
 

bigbutnottoo

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"Vote Nader"
#10
Well, if you want to vote 3rd Party and are more of a Constitutionalist than a Communist, vote Libertarian.
 
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"Vote Nader"
#11
bigbutnottoo said:
Well, if you want to vote 3rd Party and are more of a Constitutionalist than a Communist, vote Libertarian.
Who is considered a libertarian? B/c I know you say that libertarians and liberals are very different.

Bill Clinton was the best Prez in my lifetime, no doubt. The people still love him too, except the Right of course. I saw Clinton speak yesterday, and he's just as good of a speaker than he was when he ran for office.

The big reason Ralph Nader ran in 2000 was not b/c they thought he could win, it was because he could tap into the few who didnt like either parties and could get Federal Matching Funds for the Green Party. The convention has nothing to do with it. Ralph wont get on every ballot this time around either. He has no chance of winning, but yet he continues to be a spoiler and syphon votes away from the Demmy's. He's an egotistical old cynical man. A great consumer activist though, but he would be an AWFUL president. No diplomacy, no charisma, no public office holding experience, no foreign policy experience,.....the list is endless....

I hate this self-defeating mantra about how politics is all corrupt so whats the point, which is bullshit. Most people are generally good and honest, but there are some who take advantage and have a secular agenda. Bush and the Right fall under this in my opinion.

Just like Coroporate corruption, most business people are good and honest, just trying to make a living. There's the Enron, WorldCom, Tyco group who rip off stock holders and screw people out of their retirement accounts and loot the company to use it as their own personal piggy bank.
 

bigbutnottoo

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"Vote Nader"
#12
NeXus said:
Who is considered a libertarian? B/c I know you say that libertarians and liberals are very different."




The Libertarian Party is the 3rd largest organized party in the US. They did finish 5th in the last election because the Greens and Reforms ran celebrity candidates, but the Greens and Reforms have less established bases. Though I think the Greens are doing a good job in gaining. The LP holds more total offices than all other 3rd parties combined though most are lower level nonpartisan positions.

Libertarians themselves are very diverse. There are Libertarians for Peace, For War, Pro Choice, Pro-Life,etc

One of the mottos actually is "Pro-choice-on everything." Meaning that people generally know best how to choose to live their own lives.

As far as in comparison to modern liberals, Libertarians are considered "classical liberals." Some issues they may agree with Democrats, others Republicans. Some issues neither party seem to support, but Libertarians do. For example: medical marijuana and drug decriminalization. This is an issue I think Democrats could appeal to people with, but they wont touch it for the most part. in fact most of the pro-marijuana Governors i know of have been Republicans. Republicans are "conservative", but IMO Democrats seem to be even more conservative is some ways. I dont see them taking firm stances on many issues as they want to have everything both ways. Of course republicans do the same.

Basically Libertarians support the Constitution and believe that the people govern themselves and the Constitution is a document that limits the reach of the government, not the other way around. That was the intent and spirit of America and things have flipped as government has expanded. Libertarian believe in personal AND economic freedom. Property rights ARE Civil rights, etc

Some specific policies that are libertarian in nature and most libertarians support:

Freedom with Responsibility/Personal responsibility
Drug legalization
Ending IRS and looking for alternative plans such as flat tax or sales tax ( with poverty credits)
"Victimless " crimes are not crimes and should not be illegal
We should not be the world's police and have our troops stationed in every country of the world, But we should have a very strong national defense as that is one of the few things the Federal government is authorized and needed to do.

The appeal for liberals is mostly those who support true social freedoms, and for right wingers the more economic aspects. But IMO most Republicans and Democrats are beholden to special interests and big supporters of welfare. They just vary on who they think should receive special favors.
 
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"Vote Nader"
#13
bigbutnottoo said:
NeXus said:
Who is considered a libertarian? B/c I know you say that libertarians and liberals are very different."

Basically Libertarians support the Constitution and believe that the people govern themselves and the Constitution is a document that limits the reach of the government, not the other way around. That was the intent and spirit of America and things have flipped as government has expanded. Libertarian believe in personal AND economic freedom. Property rights ARE Civil rights, etc

Some specific policies that are libertarian in nature and most libertarians support:

Freedom with Responsibility/Personal responsibility
Drug legalization
Ending IRS and looking for alternative plans such as flat tax or sales tax ( with poverty credits)
"Victimless " crimes are not crimes and should not be illegal
We should not be the world's police and have our troops stationed in every country of the world, But we should have a very strong national defense as that is one of the few things the Federal government is authorized and needed to do.
Great description of the Libertarian ideology. Especially on the national defense side. The libertarians have by far the most reasoned approach on how to defend america and keep it free from foreign control. For example making sure our nuclear weapons are in top condition, and building a very advanced missile defense system. And also not pissing other countries off as a start, or as the founding fathers said 'honest friendship with all nations.' Let the rest of the world fight each other to death, they seem quite good at that.

Millionman you outright described libertarianism and what the founding fathers were saying exactly.

I have been a libertarian since I was a young boy. I just always liked the notion of freedom. Freedom to watch porn if you want, or not if you don't want too. And freedom from being forced to do things. Including being pushed around by the government thats supposed to protect you.

And as bigbutnottoo said, there is many types of libertarians. Infact a lot of the debate is where does my freedoms stop and yours begin? Or how best should the government defend america. And how should the government justice system work. To me that is what the political debate should be, what would give us the most freedom. Not who can take away freedom the fastest. Do you want democrats who raise spending at 8% a year and will take away some of your free speech, or republicans who raise it at 7.9% a year but on the downside will take away more of your free speech.

The big parties calculations at this point are what would get us the most votes. Not what would be best for the american people. I don't happen to agree with the greens on many issues, and I disagree with the conservative party on many issues, but they are telling you what they think would be best honestly.

Some people say you are throwing your vote away if you vote third party. I couldn't disagree more, if you vote for democrat or republican who will do the exact same thing on 99% of issues you are throwing your vote away. Remember how bush promised to open up the economy and cut government? Seems a long 4 years ago that he said that. Or reform the social security that is going or already is bankrupt?
 

bigbutnottoo

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"Vote Nader"
#14
randolf said:
Some people say you are throwing your vote away if you vote third party. I couldn't disagree more, if you vote for democrat or republican who will do the exact same thing on 99% of issues you are throwing your vote away. Remember how bush promised to open up the economy and cut government? Seems a long 4 years ago that he said that. Or reform the social security that is going or already is bankrupt?
Exactly.

If I DONT vote on principle then I AM wasting my vote. The lesser of 2 evils is still evil.
 
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"Vote Nader"
#15
bigbutnottoo said:
Exactly.

If I DONT vote on principle then I AM wasting my vote. The lesser of 2 evils is still evil.
Who are some canidiates who are from the libertarian party? How are liberals different from libertarians? ie. specifics like tax reform, foreign policy, corporate regulation, offshore banking, exporting jobs, Religion in Gov....

The only Gov I know for pot legalization was Jesse Ventura and that was after he served. I think Dems or Liberals are more likely to be pro-legal, b/c they're not in the pocket as much as Repubs, ie. George W. Bush. Thats why pots not legal, b/c of pharmeacutical companies, and alcohol and tobacco companies. Bost mostly drug companies. And a few Religious dicks who are fine with driving home drunk, like that bishop who killed a guy while drunk.

To me, principal is doing every thing possible to get a degenerate moron, crackpot out of office.
 

bigbutnottoo

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"Vote Nader"
#16
NeXus said:
Who are some canidiates who are from the libertarian party? How are liberals different from libertarians? ie. specifics like tax reform, foreign policy, corporate regulation, offshore banking, exporting jobs, Religion in Gov....

The only Gov I know for pot legalization was Jesse Ventura and that was after he served. I think Dems or Liberals are more likely to be pro-legal, b/c they're not in the pocket as much as Repubs, ie. George W. Bush. Thats why pots not legal, b/c of pharmeacutical companies, and alcohol and tobacco companies. Bost mostly drug companies. And a few Religious dicks who are fine with driving home drunk, like that bishop who killed a guy while drunk.

To me, principal is doing every thing possible to get a degenerate moron, crackpot out of office.
www.lp.org- the 3rd biggest party in the US. They support the Constitution, that pretty much sums up all the views. ( Whereas the "Constitution" party supports theocracy). Founded by ex-Republicans sick of Nixon dismantling and create fiat monetary system and being a bad president all around.

There are Libertarian judges and sheriffs who support drug decriminalization, 2nd ammend.,dismantling IRS,etc

My Governor in MD signed a bill for pot leniancy that is a huge compromise, but he would have legalized it if could have. Gary Johnson, the GOP Gov of New Mexico was the most outspoken politician pro pot. You would think Liberals would support it as you say, but they rarely make public stands for it. Many Republicans show some support for the constitutional republic and realize it is not a concern of the federal government to be involved in.

Jesse Ventura was very libertarian on many issues, but not all.

Libertarians are most different from Liberals or conservatives in that they believe in Personal AND economic freedoms.
 
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"Vote Nader"
#17
When you say economic freedom, do you think that people should be able to operate business with out regulations? like tax, environmental standards....etc.

I believe the governement should be the people's watchdog. Like a bullshit dectector. When they see some corporate influence trying to milk the taxpayer and the system, pass legislation to stop them from becoming the next Enron and stealing billions from the "little guy".

I always considered myself a liberal on most issues, and a Democrat. Repubs are okay, but George Bush has turned me away form the GoP. I cant stand his ass.

Maybe Im a libertarian too? But honestly I dont see a big substancial difference between a liberal and a libertarian besides some few minor details.
 

bigbutnottoo

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"Vote Nader"
#18
NeXus said:
When you say economic freedom, do you think that people should be able to operate business with out regulations? like tax, environmental standards....etc.

.
As much as reasonably possible. But it works both ways. It would also mean getting rid of the corporate welfare and corporate subsidies. The reality is its all a system of special interests where all laws dont apply to all. Simplifying the tax code would curtail special interests.
Also, the laws should apply to the government also. The government is the biggest polluter and they dont have to follow the standards they make others follow. Government has grown to a size too big to govern the way it should. Its supposed to protect us not parent us.
 
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"Vote Nader"
#19
So who best portrays the views of you, or a libertarian, John Kerry or George Bush?

I do agree with your above statements, so either Im a libertarian, or your a liberal democrat.
 

bigbutnottoo

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#20
You are likely a "left-libertarian"
 

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