some pe physiology

Now I'm wondering what smooth muscle actually is. I thought it was involuntary muscle, and that collagen was intermixed with elastin. Could you clarify where my understanding is going off road?

Thanks

This is true. The elastin is what reacts. That combination (collagen and elastin) is found in all structural tissues. In different levels.

Originally posted by Shiver
Another area I have confusion with is where the fibers are in alignment with the direction of stress they tend to be stronger, which they do as an adaption to stress. Yet, I've also read that highly cross linked fibers are less flexible. I'm having a hard time deciding which we want to happen whilst Penis Enlargement is still a work in progress.

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Well, for the tunica this isn't really an issue since it consists of two layers with the fibers oriented at right angles against each other (one is the limitation fro girth, the other for length):

"The tunica albuginea of the penis(above) consists of two fibro-elastic connective tissue layers, an inner circular and an outer longitudinal. The inner circular connective tissue layer serves to contain the erectile tissue's diameter during erection. [...] The outer longitudinal layer is present to regulate the length of the expanding penis and it extends from the glans to the proximal crura of the penis where it inserts into the pubic ramus." (link)

Good find. Answers some questions for me that I had.

I would definitely look into an anti cortisol. It looks very promising as a Penis Enlargement supplement.

The better these theories sound, the less faith I have in them. We're all just groping in the dark. Few here has the expertise - and none has the facilities and/or resources to properly test these theories....but they do sound good.
I, for one, have mostly given up trying to play doctor. I did this mostly in the beginning, when the gains were sparse. Now I focus more of my time on the actual workouts.

Originally posted by WaxN
I, for one, have mostly given up trying to play doctor.

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:D :D Personally I hope I never have to give up on "playing doctor"... :D

I really dont have any true answers here. My studies have be only on the androgen receptors and the cellular level mechinisms. Beyond that, I am lost. Way too much info to go through.

This doesnt mean at all that I believe that DHT alone will grow the penis. In engineered SMC cyclic strain cause cell proliferation in the presents of Type 1 collagen and serum.



"Studies using standard two-dimensional
cell culture confirmed that SMC response to cyclic
mechanical strain was dependent on the molecules to
which they adhered. In serum free medium, cells
adherent to fibronectin or vitronectin exhibited an
increased growth rate when exposed to cyclic strain,
while cells adherent to collagen did not respond to the
mechanical stimuli. Once again, cells adherent to
surfaces initially coated with any of the molecules
(fibronectin, vitronectin, or collagen) exhibited an
enhanced growth rate following mechanical
stimulation when cultured in serum containing
medium."

http://asme.pinetec.com/bio1999/data/pdfs/a0048100.pdf


Thats if anyone else can understand it. I have problems myself with interpreting the method of strain. It seems like the ECM means everything.

I meant to say serum meant everything. This could actually help make Penis Enlargement more of a scientifically provable and safe to do. So I have been kind of hesitant to post it but I thought maybe a debate could happen on how this could possibly correlate to Penis Enlargement.

The problem with that study is that it's in vitro and that the so-called "mechanical stress" is actually electrically induced. Makes it hard to transfer to an in vivo situation. Plus, the overall statement here seems to be that the increase in tensile strength is due to an increase in the total number of cells which would mean that hyperplasia had occured. If I have my head on straight that has never been proven under normal conditions in humans.

If this actually is how the tissues respond to mechanical stress then we can all expect very limited gains as the "toughness" of the ligaments and tunica would increase radically with the kind of stress we use (assuming that the stress we use is analogous to the stress they used which is doubtful).

Good points Ebon.... There are more studies where the strain is induced in other ways. I believe that the tensile strength does increase with the workouts (see hanging). I dont believe this would limit gains, more or less it would mean a change in attack.

Hyperplasia is a common occurrence in smooth muscle tissues. Do a search and youll see this is apart of a normal process of regeneration and growth. I dont know where you guys get that at. Thats the way it grew in the first place.

If you would like to see more of a selection of studies then I can post more. Or do a search on: SMC stress serum. Youll find a bunch or recent ones using various methods of strain.

Ebon, I believe we are chasing each other around here. Maybe a cut and paste to keep both forums up to date may be in order.

This is really a debate. I studied this quite awhile before releasing it. But, it is very possible that I might have missed something. This is why I need you guys to help me here.

Originally posted by 8 isn't enough
Hyperplasia is a common occurrence in smooth muscle tissues. Do a search and youll see this is apart of a normal process of regeneration and growth. I dont know where you guys get that at. Thats the way it grew in the first place.

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It's true that that's the way it grew in the first place. My question was more about if it happens in adult humans. I took my clue on this from the research on skeletal muscle though so there might be substantial differences. (There are theories about hyperplasia in skeletal muscle and it has been experimentally proven in rabbits but I have yet to see the results of a human study that has revealed hyperplasia. The added muscle as an effect of "maturation" of sattelite cells has been well-documented however.)

We may not be able to grow with androgens alone but from this study, I think this is what is happening to us as we stretch. There are still androgen receptors in the penis. I can prove that as well.
They give topical DHT to ED patients with a good rate of recovery.

I would hope that if this is proved to be correct then we can keep it in the Penis Enlargement community.

Some excellent input here. I'm convinced there is a solution here waiting to be found. Does anybody know what actually occurs post pubescence that dictates that we stop growing? Is it a non reversible action, or simply an equilibrium of active variables?

Maybe we could just take Myostat and do nothing? (joking)

The solution is to look at all the variables to growth. There must be everything needed for growth present. You cant treat it like a tendon because it isnt a tendon. It is a delicate mix of smooth muscle and collagen. Growth is only achieve when the smooth muscle is expanded.

I need to suBathmateit myself as a volunteer to a laboratory. There I will do my hanging routine as I currently do except, I will have a team of research analysts poking and prodding at me. LOL. I hang weights a total time of 4 hours a day...15-20 minute sessions over the day...6 days a week...my "off day" is one hour total hang time. I use heat via a hot rice sock placed on my lower penis shaft and groin area where the ligaments are. I use this heat for the first 10 minutes of the first 8 sets or so every day. I've been doing this religiously since re-starting Penis Enlargement (after off and on Penis Enlargement for over 3 years) about 2 months ago. I have gained 3/4" in flaccid stretched length, non bone pressed AND bone pressed erect length in this same time frame. So, these are not the infamous "newbie gains" so many guys see when first starting Penis Enlargement. I attribute these gains to my religious use of heat and, of course my hanging schedule. I would like to think I would not have had the same results had I not used the heat like I have. Of course, I have no team of research analysts living with me in my humble abode to prove this. So...perhaps some more questions need to be added here. What really contributes to gains? Heating the tissues to allow them to become more "elastic" and more easily stretched? The total time the stress or resistance is applied to the tissues? The amount of resistance applied to the tissues? The amount of resistance applied over time? Or, is it that, the more time the tissues are stressed WITH heat applied that will allow better growth potential? I like to think it's the last question that makes the most sense to me. Of course I say this based on my personal experience so far. What about the various tribes in Africa and other parts of the world where the men practice a more primitive form of weight hanging to elongate their penises? Do you really think they put so much thought and research into all this stuff? Hell no...they just hang rocks off their penises and, their penises over time, get longer. Granted some of these tribes engage in these practices for "religious reasons" and, are actually deliberately making themselves impotent. I dont recal what Arab tribe it is that hangs rocks from their penises for the sole purpose of mutilating the penis and making it unusable for sexual purposes as part of their religion....saw it on the Discovery channel I believe. Hell who knows.....maybe I'm just a derranged lunatic in a straight jacket in a padded cell somewhere imagining all of this? I think some of you guys who spend hours out of the month (literally) debating, calculating, and planning out which form of Penis Enlargement might work best for you and the masses...could better apply that time and, in turn, be making better gains. Of course I know some guys would rather spend their time trying to figure out or actually guestimate would be a better term for it what might work best. I was chatting on the Thundersplace forum chat with ....Hobby I believe it was....and, I made the remark to him....." ya know man...isnt it funny how we come up with all these theories and ideas as to what 'might' work best as far as enlarging our penises goes....acting like we actually KNOW that what we're proposing will work? When actually, for the most part there's no exact science to any of this stuff and we're just shooting in the dark hoping to hit a bullseye every once in a while?" Well, I'll leave you all to debate this now and mull over it and calculate and re-calculate and, spend more countless hours scanning the Internet for research articles to back up your own hypothesis and theories. I'll be making my penis bigger. Ta, ta!

Originally posted by ebon00
The problem with that study is that it's in vitro and that the so-called "mechanical stress" is actually electrically induced. Makes it hard to transfer to an in vivo situation. Plus, the overall statement here seems to be that the increase in tensile strength is due to an increase in the total number of cells which would mean that hyperplasia had occured. If I have my head on straight that has never been proven under normal conditions in humans.
If this actually is how the tissues respond to mechanical stress then we can all expect very limited gains as the "toughness" of the ligaments and tunica would increase radically with the kind of stress we use (assuming that the stress we use is analogous to the stress they used which is doubtful).

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I agree. Also, I believe you're correct about hyperplasia (they've found it in felines & other test animals but never, I believe, in humans).

Originally posted by stillwantmore
...isnt it funny how we come up with all these theories and ideas as to what 'might' work best as far as enlarging our penises goes....acting like we actually KNOW that what we're proposing will work? When actually, for the most part there's no exact science to any of this stuff and we're just shooting in the dark hoping to hit a bullseye every once in a while?" Well, I'll leave you all to debate this now and mull over it and calculate and re-calculate and, spend more countless hours scanning the Internet for research articles to back up your own hypothesis and theories. I'll be making my penis bigger. Ta, ta!

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I'm reaching this point myself. I made a few posts about Penis Enlargement "science" for some of the guys who seemed interested, but I feel that it's almost turning into a college bull session - like those interminable debates on campus about Nietzsche, Kant, Hume, etc. Mental masturbation, self-congratulatory delusion.
Want to know how "complicated" my recent gains have been?
(1) I grab my dick
(2) I pull upwards - very hard
(3) my dick has gotten longer - both soft & hard
also....if you've digested that hi-tech science....(yes, there's more choice nuggets o' wisdom!)...
(1) I form a partial ring around my base with my fingers
(2) I milk forward
(3) my dick has gotten thicker & veinier...
Reminds me of 2 famous old concepts....
(1) Plato is philosophy - the rest are all footnotes.
(2)And the other comes from the rabbis (no, I'm not Jewish), but there's an old tale that a student came up to a famous rabbi & challenged/demanded to be taught the Torah immediately. The rabbi looked him over and repeated the Sh'ma (Deut. 6:4), then said, The rest is all commentary, go study it.
Basically, we're either squeezing or pulling - the rest is all commentary. What is our "Torah"?
I'd say, read Bib's LOT theory. Try DLD's Blasters. Try Ulis or some other form of holds. Try wet & dry jelqs.
Get busy.

DLD is one the nicest people I have met in the Penis Enlargement world. Therefore I will not get into what I think about your post.

This was a discussion for those who chose to participate. If you felt like you wanted to add something constructive then you could have.

No one asked you to impose your negative attitude toward the science aspect of this. Some of us are ready to make it easier for all of us to gain. If this isnt your desire then please allow the rest of us to pursue it without obstruction.

Thanks