I want your help

I want to see what your opinions are about dating and romance today.

What is romantic to all of you? Is it opening a door, puuling up a woman's chair for her, sending flowers unexpectedly, surprising your woman with a dim lit room with candles and rose petals? What? Does it seem odd to any of you that most of us are likely to think yeah right like I would do that...she'd better be something special?

Maybe it's just me but I think it is no longer expected or even wanted by women so much as it used to be anymore. I think women tend to want those things, but if they don't get them or that kind of attention it's okay with her. But that's not what romance is in the first place fellas. It shouldn't matter if that's what your woman is expecting or wants because it should be your job to just do it because you feel like doing it and want to make her feel special. right? no? It's all right though because romantic things are subjective and come in all packages and it's not as if it's ever been prevalent among all men anyway. BUT, I must insist that the young women of today someday are going to wake up tomorrow and realize because they didn't want such things or didn't come to anticipate the sort of residuance of that all too archaic form of courtship where everything was under surveilance or subject to permission (out of breath on that one huh?) THAT you'll wish you'd found a man that wanted to give those things to you early on in life. I'm guessing that all the young single female out there and expecially the ones struggling with kids are finding that it isn't economics that is leading to their relationship not working out or making sense. There's not much expectation there for the young man to stay. I wonder if it ever has. There's always invididual circumstances. No judgement at all on this side. Just pondering.

It's just a curious thing I've wondered the last couple years. It's not that guys don't do it now. It's just that I don't think that guys are expected to anymore. Women have changed obviously in the last several decades and while guys sort of have as well I'm not too sure where the core of my observation of this lack of actual dating and romanticism resides.

I realize some might also think oh boy here's another one we've lost, but this is ME and I realize and am not trying to represent all guys just my observing of a suspected trend. And yeah guys should be romantic and treat their women with respect right off. I expect the same from women to treat me right, but that's the thing there are actual roles being played here and it is up to each to wear that role. You can deny it and pretend it isn't there or you can embrace it. It's a choice. Still I think there is something to the variances in what dating was and is. Even more I believe there to be something in our own tendency to disconnect and stay away from people. What the fuck are the suburbs anyway? I've lived in both city and shit small town U.S.A. There are differences, but I see with either case a tendency to not really want to deal with people or really engage in anything social. This isn't everyone. I stress this again because to assume this or anything applies to everyone is nuts.

I see something in our technology (Internet, cell phones, and whatever else that came before it) that leads us to take convenience and efficency over all else. Today, if it's too hard or seems like it will take work or it is too real people don't want to do it. I don't know what it's like in other countries so I'm not addressing about any other people.

As far as sex and relationships go it appears to have been this way for a while. Booty calls, toothing, just kickin it, hooking up, fuck buddies whatever. It's the easiest way to do things. I'm thinking somewhere along the line we realized we didn't want what our parents wanted or at least we didn't want to do things the way they did. We saw dating as somewhat pointless for the most part and so the quicker we found out what we wanted the quicker we found a way to just get it. With anything we take the positives with the negatives and we call it what we will. However I find that as fast as we've fouind what we wanted the more perverse and vulgar we've become and that has lead to this social disconnect where the vulgar and fast way is best, the kids are still considered actual kids at 24-30 and living at home. It's not all economics. It's social and culture stipulations that we just can't see today. Maybe we won't ever find out, but I just see a correlation between what was expected socially then and what is today. It's always NEVER been perfect. We are always looking into that smoky mirror when we look back on past generations, but still I want to hear your thoughts if you agree and expecially if you disagree. I want thoughts.

I agree that technology is largely to blame for the trend of human isolationism you speak about. Even now, talking with you here instead of over beers in some smoky pub, the phenomenom is observable. Television, cell phones, internet, online shopping, movie rentals... they're all part of this thing which keeps us home and in our own little family units and isolated.

If you want to know what it is like to really feel human and fulfilled, get rid of it all. Get rid of the cell phone and the television, the internet, all that crap. You don't really need it. Disconnect yourself from machines and get connected with people. Get out and DO something for a change!

I haven't watched TV in a year. When I was in the hospital, I decided to flip on the TV, thinking it would distract me from the pain and the boredom. I thought, after a year, there might be something new on...haha, I found that the exact same programs were running! Only the commercials were different! How can people stand to watch hours of that gunk, day after day? I turned it off after 20 minutes and just occupied myself yelling out the door of the room, harassing the nurses for more painkillers.

I work alot of long hours and it is with the public and I talk to my customers and get to know them and I feel fulfilled and happy. Most of my customers I know by name and I know their tastes and their stories. When I am not stuck in the shop, my wife and I get out. We've gone hiking this year and camped by the river and visited family. We've gone to the lake, and had a weiner roast and lots of other stuff. As soon as I get over this spleen thing I plan to do alot more of that and alot less of this.

I know what you mean. I really should get out of this habit of getting on this site every day. Sometimes I just do it because I've been researching on the internet for material that I can incorporate into a paper, which is exactly why I asked the questions in this thread. I am writing a paper on pop music and pop romanticism or lack thereof. It's not exactly worded that way of course in the paper, but I'm trying to see if I can find concrete correlations between the lyrics of our love songs if you will (from my girl...to between the sheets, to I want your sex, to today's garbage.) you know...how the vulgarity has become so openly accepted by pop culture. Yet even back in the day people had this in them all along and it was somewhat suppressed by adults and the government at times and other groups of people that thought "unfavorably" of the new music of the times. I think what we're seeing is that we've gone just about as far as we can as far as testing the limits of actual expression with significant meaning. It's the industry some will say, but I really think it's something else more than that. While I think it is that consumerism fakeness with a bit of wanting to control what goes out there ("I want people to see what we're/I'm about" sort of thing) I know I sound full of shit here, but I really think that pop music has gone from actually saying something and relating to the real way people feel about each other (relationships, sex, politics etc.) to flat out just a thin veil barely able to hide the fact there is nothing there. So if the words mean nothing? how can you be saying something? If you want to talk about or think that ass fucking (and I know this ain't the place to say this...) and then skeet skeet skeetin in some girl's mouth is music or is actually the way people think...then fine. If you think it's just music...then fine. I don't have a problem with the cussing in particular just the perverseness that is out there. I don't even really have a problem with that either actually. I think people should just realize that pop music has always been a reflection of what only a few people think and feel, but now it is more influential as to how we think and behave...it's subtle, but it is there. Romanticism has never been something that is an every day thing. That is along the same thinking that the Cleevers' represented what the 50s and shit were really like. If anything shows like that were "this is what we pretend things are" in other words fantasy. However with music today I can see the mindset that relates to the music and in turn creates a fantasy. In my eyes lyrically speaking music should never be considered the cause of anything, but rather an inspiration of thought and feelings that we actually can relate to without dictating what we feel or think. At the same time today's music remains reflective of pop culture (young people are whom I'm obviously talking about). The lyrics are reflective of that lack of romanticism and perpetuates a mindset. It isn't the cause remember. Not saying that, but I am saying that music does somewhat help take away any form of actual sensualism. You know..the actual enjoyment of an act of sex...I think like many things in America we are fixated on the idea of something as opposed the real thing. Our consumerism culture...for instance...al the things that are associated with a nice car, a big house, lots of money...it all represents that we think we can obtain certain things in life by owning such objects. We cannot. I'm all for sex. I'm all for really anything. Don't get me wrong. I'm just making observations. If it seems I'm assuming too much that is probably true. But the more we thin ourselves away from substance the worse off we will become. There's nothing shocking about any image that is associated with any band or performers or rap artist than any lyrics that are written today. (there are exceptions so shut the fuck up lol like I said this is all subjective. So really who cares what any of them have to say? Yet somehow we have reached a point when our music dictates what people think about us (not so different than how it always has been no?) yet we try to find ourselves by maybe acting and talking like the people we see as rock or rap stars??? HUH? Dumb.


Anyone and I should hope many of you that might read this are saying fuck this. He's completely wrong. Okay. Romanticism is subjective like I said, but my feelings on pop music's lyrics...I'm merely working on that. Music influences as I've said and it reflects culture like I've said, but should it somehow make even one person think that somehow our consumerism and need for vulgarity and obsceness encompass us until all real things, all the real objects of desire...aceptance, love, sex, etc devolve into meaninglessness? Eh?

I brought this over, and it is quite interesting. It's very true, if we're going to talk abou the emptiness behind the veil of "pop" culture then we have to discuss the reality that women are not striving to be women anymore, they just want to be "taken" care of and to be someone's arm candy. This is very apparent to me even when I'm around young women in college who are supposedly seeking higher educaiton, but when asked majority of these women just want to be stay at home moms. Romance has died because we as men have decided that it's not what they want, and they being programmed to respond to us go along with it, and then gripe about it on down the road. We should be romantic and appreciative of the women in our lives not because we have to be, but because we want to be. It's showing love for no other reason than because you can, not to get anything out of it. It amazes me how even faithful men and women of the Lord don't see Love as a choice, Christ's death on the cross was a choice and He made it because He loved us. That's the reality of our lives, He died for His bride giving Himself completely, but to receive nothing in return, but to offer eternal salvation. I personally look forward to being with my wife for all time, and showing her what true love is like in this natural world. Here's the info....

Watch this video clip:

Quicktime
Windows Media
Rabbi Boteach appearing on Scarborough: "We are the first generation ever that has succeeded in making women more sleazy and more vulgar than men"
In promoting his new book, Hating Women: America's Campaign Against the Fairer Sex (ReganBooks, April 2005), radio host and WorldNetDaily columnist Rabbi SHydromaxuley Boteach had the following to say about women on the May 4 edition of MSNBC's Scarborough Country to host Joe Scarborough:

BOTEACH: Well, civilization, Joe, has traditionally relied on women to civilize men, to teach them the benefits of domesticity and family over aggression and lechery. We are the first generation ever that has succeeded in making women more sleazy and more vulgar than men.

[...]

Do you ever notice that, before a woman goes out on a date these days, she would never read a newspaper to form an opinion? She wouldn't go to a library to gain knowledge. She sits in front of a mirror, paints her face, or goes to the gym, because, as far as she is concerned, men are trained and sensitized today to only appreciate her body. The feminist dream is dead.

[...]

Women really have been reduced to having to shock people into getting their attention, because the feminist dream of a woman's brain being taken seriously or being valued for her heart is dead, dead, dead. mediamatters.org/items/200505050002

You know I have to agree with that assessment on our generation's women becoming more vulgar than men. I see this as the tipping point of when gender meets choice. In other words all the programmed social crap that we have preconceived about our identities will ultimately change forever. It's like women were suppressed for so long that finally they have the opportunity to have all that they see as equal, but too many have chosen to be corrupted by the same things men have historically. I don't mind women smoking too much or a girl that drinks, but if it's excessive to the point where you'd think it's something only a man would be stupid enough to want then there's no way I'm dating them.

I see young women being the aggressor in relationships. It's one thing to lead, but to behave in the manner that men have traditionally been dogged on for...what reason would one have for wanting that? I'm always going to like women, but I'm not dating any girl that I'd consider to be looking out only for her financial security or other shallow concerns. That to me is what this is about. Women have embraced the idea of exploiting men for their looks and sex, but it has unfortunately cost them any significant pillar of progress they may have made socially before. You watch. That part about the feminism (not the neo kind) dream is dead on. It's hard to reprogram an entire gender's mentality, but really it is happening. The ones that do only want to be one of those lay on your ass wives or one that raises children but never aspires for anything more they are the ones I'm referring to. I dated a girl that actually told me that that was all she wanted to do with her life was be a wife. She didn't say a mother. She said a wife. That was all. It's obvious I didn't do what I could to keep her around. I don't think women embrace what they've traditionally (the good traditions not the suppressive ones from back in the day) been allauded for possessing. Yes that beauty, but also that aura of the unobtainable. If it's flaunted and given out at will without expecting anything other than a cash flow...then what do you expect to get in return? It's not going to be love. No one can love someone that doesn't see themselves as a woman. You know a counterpart to the other someone who might love you if you looked for something more. But there are still ladies out there. It's just harder to find them. I need to get out of this college town though. I never thought I'd say that! But really I was just out earlier in the day. Every girl I saw was alone....in their car...with shades on...and beads or those fake flowers hanging in the rearview mirror. Girls now I think maybe are just having their fill or fun of youth, but the ideas behind dating are suffering for it. How can anyone be romantic on a date nowadays? Some think it's a sign of weakness or a loser mentality.


I'm having a hard time finding any essays online (I will venture to the library soon enough though) or articles dealing with romance or dating that would help me...I keep finding blogs that have a bit of nice, but ultimately worthless bits of opinion. It seems unless it is a specialty forum like political or religious oriented the people tend to really offer little. I appreciate this forum though because I've noticed we do have some real bright people. Thanks Kong and Millionman for your imput. It has sparked some new thoughts I have. I might just have to change my thesis though because I'm not finding anything that supports what I have to say. I might broaden it up a bit and not exclusively make it about pop music. I might just go for the whole technology thing and a dissconect. Or I might go for the reasons behind romance's disappearance. I'm blaming both men and women. I think if men went that extra mile more often than not women would respond positively. I just think there is a complacency now with women that we haven't seen before to the point where they don't feel they need it. We need to show them when we love them or like them. Romance is not for anything other than to show them what you feel. That social dissconnect is partly the cause of why it's not seen as much. It's easier to just go with the flow and not worry about it.

I think one of the funniest thing a man can do now is try the David D'angelo techniques to get with women. That's as slimy as it gets for men. Just be a man, forget the games and be who you are. Just be a man, and by that I mean be kind, but don't be a door mat, be generous and affectionate, but don't be flowers and candy constantly make it special, and be yourself. If you are to be respected you have to respect yourself, and I know that she will respect you. There's no need to try to be something you're not the Rico Suave routines need to go.

Women are the agressors because of the feminist movement. There's so much lost in translation from the original feminists who simply wanted the right to vote and equal pay for equal work, they've gone as far as to take on traits of men, knowing that we have certain aspects to our personalities that they do not. In reality that is how we were created, Eve came from Adam not the other way around. It's not about dominance but understanding the difference between the sexes, and there are tons more differences than similarities.

IWANT8, I completely understand what you mean about getting out of the college town. It seems that more and more of these girls fall into a certain category. One girl who looks like a sorority girl isn't a sorority girl and scoffs at the idea, but she carries herself the same and treats people as if she were one, so what's the difference...the title. The sheep mentality has over taken the mindset of the majority of our country, and we are becoming more and more like Europe thanks to groups like the ACLU etc. I walk my own path with my Lord and saviour, and I can honestly say that I will not enjoy the freedom to discuss Him in public much longer, but as Christ Himself said the cross is offensive, and in our times it has become the most offensive thing imagineable. I just wish that some of these women will one day look at themselves in the mirror and think what am I doing, and for men I wish the same. That the see the shallow existence they lead and search to discover the Truth in all His Glory. That's what I see more than anything, is the shallow existence of men and women alike, and I'm not excluding the "christians" from this group either. They mention faith in one breath and espouse fear the next, as the obviously don't know what FAITH really as cause if they did their words would not be of fear but of security and a steadfast heart. I can go on and on about the current state of the Western Church, but I'll refrain cause I don't want to hijack the thread, but for me all of this fits together and it just goes to show the depravity to which we have sunk.

millionman said:

I think one of the funniest thing a man can do now is try the David D'angelo techniques to get with women. That's as slimy as it gets for men. Just be a man, forget the games and be who you are. Just be a man, and by that I mean be kind, but don't be a door mat, be generous and affectionate, but don't be flowers and candy constantly make it special, and be yourself. If you are to be respected you have to respect yourself, and I know that she will respect you. There's no need to try to be something you're not the Rico Suave routines need to go.

Women are the agressors because of the feminist movement. There's so much lost in translation from the original feminists who simply wanted the right to vote and equal pay for equal work, they've gone as far as to take on traits of men, knowing that we have certain aspects to our personalities that they do not. In reality that is how we were created, Eve came from Adam not the other way around. It's not about dominance but understanding the difference between the sexes, and there are tons more differences than similarities.

IWANT8, I completely understand what you mean about getting out of the college town. It seems that more and more of these girls fall into a certain category. One girl who looks like a sorority girl isn't a sorority girl and scoffs at the idea, but she carries herself the same and treats people as if she were one, so what's the difference...the title. The sheep mentality has over taken the mindset of the majority of our country, and we are becoming more and more like Europe thanks to groups like the ACLU etc. I walk my own path with my Lord and saviour, and I can honestly say that I will not enjoy the freedom to discuss Him in public much longer, but as Christ Himself said the cross is offensive, and in our times it has become the most offensive thing imagineable. I just wish that some of these women will one day look at themselves in the mirror and think what am I doing, and for men I wish the same. That the see the shallow existence they lead and search to discover the Truth in all His Glory. That's what I see more than anything, is the shallow existence of men and women alike, and I'm not excluding the "christians" from this group either. They mention faith in one breath and espouse fear the next, as the obviously don't know what FAITH really as cause if they did their words would not be of fear but of security and a steadfast heart. I can go on and on about the current state of the Western Church, but I'll refrain cause I don't want to hijack the thread, but for me all of this fits together and it just goes to show the depravity to which we have sunk.

Click to expand...

I think we are on the same wavelength when it comes to this issue.

The ACLU while I do appreciate what they try to stand for they do go overboard and sometimes infringe upon the personal lives as much as the government does. There are conservative groups that are like the ACLU but are not as liberal (obviously) if you will. I know you know that, but really right now more than ever such civil liberties protection groups are needed. WE are really headed toward something terrible. I don't know how much power can be possessed by one government without accountability.

As for the Christians in this country being under attack...I'd say right now there are more out there that dislike the way the government leaders are helping to empower certain individuals who take the Lord's name and place it on behalf of War, bigotry, hate...as opposed to people just flat out seeing the sign of the Cross as offensive. Redemption will be something to look for however. But I won't go into that in this thread as I still want to see what others think about the lack of romance and what is the cause. Wonder if they will comment. I'll take anything. :blush: