Do you believe in god? the gods discussion thread

Jesus some people can talk crap.

you know what? the arguements going on in this thread are proof that religion causes violence. when people become to serious about it, it takes away the magic of it.

I believe in a afterlife
I do not believe god is a conscious (that is he can't think or make decisions)
I do not belieive a soul is a cloudy blue thing but i do think it is a representation of everything good about ourselves.

GS you shouldn't be so head strong. calm down and break your thoughts down to basics.

religion has become to material. everyone thinks god is a person who can create stuff and what not. and heaven is a place with lots of clouds.

Noone should be as passionate as some people are on this thread about their opinion. some of you should be ashamed. even though people say that they arn't trying to force their belief on others, they really are.

instead of having beliefs, people are preparing arguements

I dont know if I believe in "God" as a sole, devine entity or in "Jesus Christ" as the saviour of mankind. I do believe there is some 'higher power' or perhaps a creative force is a better term to use. I cannot personally put my finger on ONE sole belief and say for example "yes, I definitely believe that this is true as depicted herein this text". I have come to believe through archeaological fact that the history of the earth is not all that it seems and that "history" as defined in most texts is in fact incorrect and that humans have been on earth far longer than accepted by many people and scientific 'circles'. Take Egypt and the Sphinx for example. There is a big circle of scientists and acheaologists who believe that the Sphinx in Egypt is around 4,500 years or so old. It is a fact though that Egypt was once a lush landscape with regular rainfall, trees, grass, etc around 10,000 years ago....if this is true ...the Sphinx would have to be more than twice as old as many people accept it to be. One source of evidence for this fact is WATER erosion marks on the Sphinx. Is there extra terrestrial life out there? Dunno. Who can say for certain right now anyway? I do think it's an awefully HUGE waste of space though if we are the ONLY intelligent life in the ENTIRE universe.

As far as religion goes, I dont think any ONE religion can truly be considered more right or better than any other. Most if not all religions are in fact simply re-interpretations of one or the other or so it seems and NOBODY can for sure point to any culture of the world and say for certain "here is where religion really started". What "religion" really came first? I think it was probably Astrology. While not really considered a true "religion", it shares MANY of the same principles of "Christianity" and most other religions. There's the Sun in the center of the chart....Son of "God", then, the 12 signs of the Zodiac...12 deciples of Christ, the "son of God". Many religions...NOT JUST "Christianity" share a "Devine birth" or "Virgin Birth" or "Immaculate Coneption" of their "savior". The sun of our solar system (center of the Astrological chart right?) according to the "Big Bang" theory was created spontaneously and from a religious stand point...out of nothing.

I believe that we are here for some sort of purpose though. What that purpose is...who can really say. If you take the religous approach you could say we're here to fullfill some devine purpose...some predestined final conflict between good and evil and to ultimately live in "bliss" for all eternity with our creator. There are many arguments for and against religion. Which one is right though? I've heard it said that "religion" was invented by mankind as a means to give peace of mind...rather than having to accept that we are simply living an ultimately bleak existence...when we die thats it.....that's a scary thought that would lead ...and possibly DOES lead many people to lives of fear so mankind invented religion and God, and spirtuallity to divert our thoughts away from dwelling on the fact that we're simply an evolved, higher life form that in the end is nothing more than worm food when we die.

There are those who believe that we are a result of some sort of "hybrid" genetic engineering by alien life forms who visited earth many thousands of years ago and continue to visit earth. Ah but if this is so....who or what created these alien beings? Did they just "poof" appear out of nowhere? Or did they evolve like everything else? Maybe we are a result of hybrid engineering? I like that idea much better than the idea that we evolved from some mindless creature that crawled from the seas eons ago, evolved into an ape and then a man. LOL. Alien life forms would be a nice way to help explain how the Pyramids and Sphinx were built....nobody to this day can put a definite answer on that...nor reproduce on the same scale ...even with modern engineering technology these huge structures.

So, Do I believe in "God"? I'm not totally sure really. I mean all matter and life in the universe is here as a result of 'something' happening. If there is this all seeing, omnipresent being or entity that created us and the universe though....then, where did "GOD" come from???? Was God just drifting along in nothingness since before time could be measured only to at some point become bored and decide to creat a universe?? I mean comon...how could that be? How could this "God" have just always been there..? He/she/it had to come from somewhere right?

Originally posted by stillwantmore
I have come to believe through archeaological fact that the history of the earth is not all that it seems and that "history" as defined in most texts is in fact incorrect and that humans have been on earth far longer than accepted by many people and scientific 'circles'. Take Egypt and the Sphinx for example. There is a big circle of scientists and acheaologists who believe that the Sphinx in Egypt is around 4,500 years or so old. It is a fact though that Egypt was once a lush landscape with regular rainfall, trees, grass, etc around 10,000 years ago....if this is true ...the Sphinx would have to be more than twice as old as many people accept it to be.

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5000 versus 10,000 years is not that big a deal. Homo sapiens have existed somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 years. So actually the brain capacity to form civilizations has been around a lot longer than any known great civilizations. This is probably because for a long time humans existed in small isolated tribes.

By the way, the oldest known pyramids are in South America and are about 1000 years older than the pyramids in Egypt.

I'm so glad that this visciously divisive topic is a sticky thread!

I'm not sure if I believe in God.... I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school for most of my educational career, which most likely had a hand in making me discard most religious bullshit.

I believe that we were created, but by God? I don't know.

I am an agnostic, meaning that i do not believe that god exists or that he does not exist.

I need proof to belive either way.

I am just neutral.

The world is too full of pain to think that god could exist.
I really think that god and satan are the same thing if they do exist.

Just playing us for fools.

Cheers,
Cas

Hi I am an Orthodox and I used to be a non-believer and I used just the same arguments to prove there is no God. But.... I felt it was WRONG. I don`t know.. I felt something inside of me that I couldn`t deny. Try to view this more symbolic. I think God is the path to doing good, to keeping yourself balanced [psychologically]. Both the Devil and God are inside you. See, when you do something wrong [I dont mean a minor thing] you find it difficult to see who you really are, and by doing so, you can easily get lost.
Praying is a psychological act, if you believe in God, it can help you find yourself, become better and find strength and positive energy within you. If you believe in God you are not dummer, nor if you dont, but you cannot deny your spiritual side.
Try to go to the church ..... You are wasting so much optimism!!

P.S. I will never be able to understand U guys who believe in aliens and dont believe in God.

Spidy,
Very nice first post, I like how you think! Allow me to extend a warm welcome, and I hope to hear many more of your thoughts.

Pirate

The only thing we can truly believe in is ourselves.

Cheers,
Cas

PirateSteve,

I`m very glad to be here and thanks.... I feel really welcome here..

Originally posted by doublelongdaddy
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ"

(2 Corinthians 11:3)

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True, DLD. I believe in God. I believe Jesus is the Christ.

I'm a pretty smart guy, and I'm smart enough to know that I don't, can't know everything. I find it humorous that a bunch of dick pullers like ourselves would try to claim to know anything. That's why it's called faith.

FYI atheists: science has been proven inaccurate and tweaked throughout time; by its very nature and defintion science is an ongoing learning experience. Show me one time the Bible has ever been PROVEN wrong. On the contrary, it has NEVER been proven wrong, simply that some things cannot be proven. I'm talking here the difference in positively disproving some thing/idea(as has happened SO many times with science throughout history), and simple inability to substatiate one way or the other.

Why do scientists think they are so smart that if they can't PROVE something, it must not be. It is oxymoronic to claim such high intelligence and not be able to realize you don't know everything and there may, simply, be things beyond our human realm of comprehension.

I won't try to prove to you the existence of God and that Jesus was God on earth to allow us a means of eternal salvation. I can't. I will say all the proof I need is in my heart.

I know it's lame, but like Phoebe said to Ross on Friends: Can't you just admit the possibility. Scientists were absolutely sure for years that the atom was the smallest thing in existence and then it got split open and all this crap came out. If you were wrong about that, can't you admit that you may be wrong about God?

Last and probably least, if one of us is going to be wrong, and one of is, you better hope its me.

Now I can go back to relaxing in my 'ignorant' Christian bliss and work on making my meat bigger.

Originally posted by Texan
FYI atheists: science has been proven inaccurate and tweaked throughout time; by its very nature and defintion science is an ongoing learning experience. Show me one time the Bible has ever been PROVEN wrong.

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Science is indeed a method to reveal the truth by successive approximation and the body of knowledge so acquired.

On the other hand, "proving something wrong" or false is a fool's errand.

There have been many religions that have come and gone in man's history. Not a single one of them has been "disproven" in any meaningful sense. Those that have been lost have simply lost the last members who believed in that particular religion.

There are, of course, as many possible religions as there are individuals with the imagination to create them. And the range of possibilities in such myth creation is virtually unlimited.

How could anyone begin to "disprove" each and every religion, most of which offer no means of testing them?

An advocate of any particular religion always assumes his particular religion is true unless disproven.

But in my case as an atheist, I see lots of religions trying to sell me on their belief. It is simply not practical for me to attempt to prove or disprove any one of them, let alone all of them.

So unless the religious advocate can PROVE his religion to me, why should I pick his over the others, why should I pick any one or combination of them???

Excellent post Mr. Dobbs. You cannot disprove a moving target. Yet if somehow you were able to prove all religions were made by man and are false, does this lead to a scientific finding that God is too? And if so many men, in fact over 98% of them I believe, trust in some version of God, is that not empirical enough to conclude that SOME version of God exists? Or are we all, unlike you chosen skeptics, completely duped?

Unfortunately, God is not about scientific proof at all. It is a cruel irony for people who require proof. God is about faith. Even you atheists have some of that, though you refuse to admit it. For instance, do you have a complete understanding of electricity, how it is made, how it is delivered, how it makes a light-bulb light?

A Complete understanding now - how we can excite electrons, and why they behave as they do. I will assume that you do not. Now, despite not having proved electricity, and not being able to see it, you turn the light switch every day and know without a doubt the light will come on. That is faith.

Those of us who have faith have experienced God in our lives, just like the light when it was switched on. We know he is there, just like you know the light will come on. And since we have no more understanding of God than you do of electricity, we have no way to Prove he exists. We just accept he is there, as you do the electricity.

Of course this analogy can be picked apart, but a smart man will see the truth of it. Perhaps you do indeed understand electricity, but maybe you don't internal combustion. Or perhaps why it rains. But see the dark cloud, and you will run for cover!

We of faith get frustrated when you don't see the simplicity of flicking the switch to get light. You get frustrated with the same old lame arguments you have heard a thousand times before, NONE of which can prove anything.

God is not found in a church, a religion, a board thread. He is found in that quietest place inside each of us we rarely go. The church, the religion, those are how we celebrate our faith - not how we gain it. Sometimes a church or an individual can help us see what we did not before, but not always or even often. Most of us need to experience it on our own, in our own time.

The good news is that the debate continues. The more we discuss, the more you think about proving or disproving God. The more you think about God, the more there is a chance you will recognize what you have not yet noticed and find your way to a path of discovery.

Notice that nobody on this board is pushing that they have the only true God. Nobody here is trying to sell the atheists a specific package. I find that refreshing and it speaks highly of the quality of posters here at MOS. I think you recognize that too.

For us it's like having a good piece of candy we want to share with a friend. He won't taste it unless we can describe it. But since it is unlike anything else we know, we can't - we have no frame of reference. So he goes away without flavoring this most wonderful candy, and we feel sad. We wanted to share.

Originally posted by bobbdobbs
On the other hand, "proving something wrong" or false is a fool's errand.

There have been many religions that have come and gone in man's history. Not a single one of them has been "disproven" in any meaningful sense. Those that have been lost have simply lost the last members who believed in that particular religion.

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Dobbs,

You have good points, but please understand my post had NOTHING to do with disproving a religion or faith (which you were 100% correct in asserting cannot be done). Perhaps I was not clear, but my post said the Bible has never been disproven, and that IS something that, theoretically, could be done, but it hasn't. All scientific evidence pertaining to the Bible has proven its accuracy.

The Bible is a very detailed book. It is not like reading a horoscope. Our Book has a very detailed account of history as well as a very detailed account of the origin and history of our faith. If ANY aspect (historical or faithical) of this Book could be positively disproven it would seriously affect the legitimacy of the entire work. But there is nothing that can be cited that is dispositive of the Bible. And the opportunity to do so is there.

I am not referring to you specifically Dobbs, because I don't your beliefs, but I do not understand how some can buy into the theory of evolution so easily. It has holes in it. I'm not saying the human species (and others) hasn't had evolutionary advances over time, but do I think my grandaddy was an ape? No. Why anyone would choose to believe this is beyond me. Evolutionists can't prove their theory any better than I can prove mine... if they could they wouldn't be looking high and low for the conclusive "missing link." Its funny; they've found fossils older than the alleged "missing link" and obviously newer ones, so where is it?

They haven't seen it, yet they believe (faith?). I guess they have more in common with me than they realize.

Best to all-

What do you mean that the Bible has never been proven wrong?
First of it all it was written by men not the word of God. God dosent write books. The Bible also says to punish people to death for crimes like infidelity. The Bible is wrong on all of its fairy tales like making man out of clay and woman out of a rib. It sounds like a book of Madlibs. Noah's Ark could never of happened. Do you know how many species of insects there are? Millions. How could this old man gather 2 of every animal and get them to fuck on a boat? Remember Millions of insects.

I know that Christians and Realists will never be able to come to an agreement until science proves otherwise, which I believe that we will sometime in the future. But until then why would you believe someone, who I guaranetee is no smarter or holier than you, that they know what happens when you die.

Lets come to an agreement. I know that we all have theories and faiths that we believe in. I believe in science and you believe in faith. Only one can be scientifically proven with facts so far, but lets all face the fact that we really dont know what happens when we die. Nobody knows for a Fact, not the Pope, not the Priest and not even scientists. I'm willing to face the fact that I don't know and therefore can say I am open to all theories. And the chips fall where they may. Lets all admit that we will never know until the day we die.

Also if the afterlife is Heaven, which is eternal paradise and eternal bliss walking beside Jesus in the Kingdom of Heaven, then why dont Christians celebrate when people die? I know if that was the case I'd would be hoping for death. No more job, money, politics, or anything just eternal bliss.

You know, just when I post how pleased I am that no believer here is selling a specific package, BAM!

Nexus, I agree with most of your post. Excellent, but:

>lets all face the fact that we really dont know what happens when we die. Nobody knows for a Fact, not the Pope, not the Priest and not even scientists.<

True enough, except, some of us have died and returned. I, for instance, have twice. I didn't go all the way to the bright light, but I can assure you it's there - and there is a whole lot more. And I am not the only one. A few HAVE gone to the light and returned just to be scorned. Scientists, skeptics and Christians alike want to believe they are crackers and refuse to give them any credibility. Apparently such considerations do not fit any of their agendas...

I do agree completely with this:

>>Also if the afterlife is Heaven, which is eternal paradise and eternal bliss walking beside Jesus in the Kingdom of Heaven, then why dont Christians celebrate when people die? I know if that was the case I'd would be hoping for death. No more job, money, politics, or anything just eternal bliss.<<

True believers are exactly like this, they have no fear of death and celebrate the passing when it comes. In fact, it is how I separate false religious pomposity from true belief. Many who claim to believe actually don't. Oh mind you, they want to believe, they are DESPenis EnlargementRATE to believe, they completely fool their conscious mind into believing, but their subconscious still doubts.

These "almost" believers are the loud ones who make religion unpalatable to everyone else - not on purpose, not intentionally, but as a result of trying so desperately to convince themselves. Always quoting empty scripture with one dimensional interpretation. They know each individual scripture, and seem to enjoy beating you over the head with it, but have no real understanding of what the whole collection of verses means.

I imagine that their subconscious figures the more people the they can convince the more they can accept the truth themselves. Or perhaps they believe that by browbeating enough people into the church membership they will earn a way into heaven in case it exists. Maybe they just think if they are loud enough God will reveal himself to them and they can really believe. Whatever, they are a pain in everyones ass.

Many others do actually believe, but don't believe that they THEMSELVES will be able to get into paradise. They fear judgment, despite what their religion teaches about redemption. So they go to church, pay the money, say their prayers, all in hopes that somehow something will be looked upon well and they will be able to get to paradise after all. They are the quiet majority in every religious gathering, and they are very much afraid.

Lack of observable unity of belief among individuals within religious groups is exactly the kind of thing that drives many of the curious away from religion. Perhaps rightly so. I just want to remind you that just because the religions you have experienced are unpalatable, ridiculous or outright unbelievable - does not lead to a sane conclusion that God himself does not exist. Man is flawed and human even in his expression of faith.

Originally posted by Texan
Perhaps I was not clear, but my post said the Bible has never been disproven, and that IS something that, theoretically, could be done, but it hasn't. All scientific evidence pertaining to the Bible has proven its accuracy.

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Tex,
Just a thought. I think the onus to prove the Bible is on those that want to introduce it as evidence. Otherwise it is simply here-say. Unfortunately, the only proof ever presented by anyone to my knowledge is forced to rely on circular arguments.

And while one might rightfully claim it is a fine historical document, and even good at presenting the thoughts and ideals of many of those portrayed in it, further claims to non-believers without specific proof of the source material are specious at best.

I am not sure that writing a reply to any of this will prove productive but it will hopefully give some positive thought to the discussion about the Bible. While I realize that many who read this will discredit the Bible, it is a book that has stood the test of time and defends itself. It is accurate where it speaks, both regarding history and science. To say that it has yet to be disproved is really true too. You or I may not understand it but it speaks truth. Where a seemingly contradiction occurs it is generally because it is not understood or viewed from another position. It is not hard to explain Noah's Ark. There is enough evidence to prove that this "boat" existed. Expeditions to Mt Arrat in Turkey have given more than total credit. Two of every species is not beyond comprehension. Insects...I don't worry about what I don't understand. If Noah took them into the ark or they survived the flood, I don't know. We sure have plenty now. The Bible itself says that men wrote it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Much of what we believe, we believe by faith. We do things, hoping for a correct result. We do things because we have faith it will work.
The Bible is full of examples of people who had faith to try something and accomplish it. The Bible is a History book as well as a view of what God is like. Unfortunately I keep hearing from those on this thread as well as those I know personally, about a concept of God as portrayed by a religious group, or groups, a concept of denominational views and other views that make God to be what man has painted HIM rather than what the Bible says. I can't change that, but the God of the Bible is often not the god of the so called church or religion.
Death to the believer in Christ holds no fear. While he might know know what the future holds, he has a faith in the work of the the cross and if the Bible is true, and it is, then it says to be absent from the body, death, is to be present with the Lord.
Some will come back and challenge me to prove the Bible true. I don't need to do that. It proves itself. It can defend itself. Any so called errors are places of minor controversy that you want to find fault with. Do I believe it. Yes. Where I have had to explain or try and decipher it, I have found it true, despite my attempts to discredit it.
For example: In Hebrews 11:3 the bible says that the "things that are seen were not made of things which do appear."
We were so smart to discover the atom and find out that all the things we see are made of things (atoms) put together in a particular molecular structure, atoms so small we can't see them. God told us that long before we in our intelligence discovered the atom.
Archeology is constantly discovering things that prove the Bible accurate. It is accurate where it speaks.
We major on things that we often don't understand. I guess I don't have trouble with the things I don't understand. I sure enough have trouble with the things I do understand.
Don't mean to try and discredit anyone or convince anyone. Just my thoughts. Thanks for listening. GS

a quick word about science . . .

it's not a belief system - it is a process.

a scientific theory is not regarded to be absolute truth in the scientific community . . . it is simply the best possible explanation that has not yet been disproved by an easily repeated and explainable process. science and rationality ask you to accept nothing more than this. science is always willing to correct and improve upin itself, it is seeking the best answers, it is not a static body of knowledge. there is no anti-religious bias in science, this is just percieved because so little of any religious thought holds up to examination and scrutiny.

religion, christianity in particular since that seemt to be what we are discussing here, orders you to accept it as the one reality and truth based soley on "faith," which is a fine and romantic notion, but is more or less a code word for surrender to irrationality.

why on earth would i believe there is some kind of cosmic or unfathomable super-being watching my every move and judging me, condmening my life if i don't live it according to some arcane principles? why has the whole world's population not been exposed to this? are the billion are so christians just special, and the 10 billion or so other modern humans that have ever lived are doomed? somebody back there cited the fact that much of the world believes in some kind of god, well let me just chime in that although that is quite true, the differences between said gods are severe, and many believe in polytheistic relgions that are vastly different than any western one-god relgions (which incidently are all derived from the jews, the first to popularize a one god faith system).

why did a god fill our world with conflictory evidence to what religion dictates? is he into tricking his flock? i would ask the religious to at least contemplate whether they feel god would be in their lives if they were raised isolated from society. god is not intuitive, relgion is indoctrination, people know about and believe in it because they were either told to when they were young or sold on when they were older.

i don't have a problem with religion, more power to you. but i do feel that limiting your view and perception of the world through a belief system cooked up a few thousand years ago doesn't do you any favors in life. i don't want the answers handed to me. i also know that athiests have never gone about murdering people or fighting wars because they don't believe in god . . . but millions have lost their lives because of faith. this doesn't reflect on people that hold faith now, but rather on the nature of faith itself.

i never believed in god, not even when i was a small child, i found the idea absurd even then. i have researched relgion, read books arguing for and agaisnt faith, left my mind open. i can never escape the fact ever, that in the end religion is asking you to just believe without much merit, it is soley based on what others claim, it is anecdotal at best, and certainly less rational than the conclsuion that relgion is not an accurate explanation of things. and what benefit do i get from belief? nothing really, i don't need. i don't fear death, because i think there is nothing afterwards, your brain shuts down, there is no pain, no thought, nothing, and that is okay, because hey, i'll be gone. i believe one of the reasons religion developed in the first place was the primitive human fear and curiosity surrounding death.

i'm surprised nobody here has cited the famous propsition by the mathematician blais pascal, who wagered that it is worth your while to have faith in god, because by doing so you risk nothing and stand to gain much in the afterlife if god is real. by not believing you risk eternity. my reaction to that has been the same my whole life, since i heard it at the age of 11 . . . sheer cowardice. i'll never suBathmateit to what any group dogmatically claims to be the truth without so much as a shred of evidence, other than volumes of circular rhetoric, out of a ridiculous fear of some afterlife torture for not suBathmateitting. the very fact that a concept of hell of punisHydromaxent was ever introduced just throws more evidence towards the notion that religion is very much about fear and control. it may not have started out that way, but if you read the old testament, that god, the original god before he was re-written in the sequal, is one angry motherfucker.



*german stallion - you seem like a nice guy. pick up a copy of "The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan. it's not actually about demons, don't worry, but it might give you some food for thought.

Hi Good...Thanks for the thought on the book. I don't have the book but went on line and read CARL SAGAN'S BALONEY DETECTION KIT...based on the book. Will try and get a copy. Very interesting and I must say thought provoking. I read this article carefully and honestly and many, not 100 per cent, but many of the thoughts were things that I have put into my thinking process when dealing with many subjects. Much of the discussion about God is predicated by bias of a denomination or experience that is often very faulty or is a straw man issue. When I begin to see common denominators showing up, then I know there is a pre-detrmined, or generally or often, a pre-detrmined bias. When we start off with a wrong premise then the results are going to be wrong...no matter how hard we work the problem. Anyway, these are good discussioins and make us think. Thinking is something that many have forgotten how to do. GS

Originally posted by goodbutnotgreat
i'm surprised nobody here has cited the famous propsition by the mathematician blais pascal, who wagered that it is worth your while to have faith in god, because by doing so you risk nothing and stand to gain much in the afterlife if god is real.

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Probably because it has an obvious flaw. There is more than one religion, more than one god to choose from. So it is not an either/or choice. If you pick the wrong god among the multitude, you are still screwed.

So his idea that there was an obvious win-win choice was merely a myopic illusion.