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"do you believe in God?"
#1
I am a very real person. I dont believe in horoscopes, bad or good luck, or fate. But when it comes to religion I become even more skeptical. But I do beliveve in a supreme being whether it be God or whatever.

The older I become and the more that we learn as a human race, I am finding all kinds evidence that religion is bullspit. The evolution theory goes against the Bible and religion. And I think that is more probable, that through millions of years of evolution we became what we are as opposed to the world and humans created in seven days at the hand of God.

i am in no way anti-god or anti-semitist or anti-jesus. After all who is a better role model than Jesus? But lately i have been asking myself some really hard questions. And i feel like i have been lied to as a child. When i was 6, i didn't mind beliveing in Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny only to find out that it was make believe. But they never told me that religon might be fairy tale.

Somebody post and help me with some soul-searching.....what do you believe in?
 

Gardenier90

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"do you believe in God?"
#2
Yes I believe in god.
 

Gardenier90

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"do you believe in God?"
#3
.
 

ItsElectric

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"do you believe in God?"
#5
I believe that aliens are watching us. Kinda like we're their ant farm.

-ItsElectric
 
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"do you believe in God?"
#6
I don't.
Everything around us can be explained on the basis of mechanics, mathematics and those which are a little beyond these classical theories are almost fully explained by quantum mechanics. Evolution is no miracle. Genetic algoritHydromaxs do the same thing. Only the selection criteria are governed by survival in the real wworld while in computer simulations the human intervenes with fitness tests for each mutation/reproduction.
Life and the origin of the universe however are beyond the capacity of contemporary science. However planets, stars, evolution were considered act of God in the last century and now it's within our grasp.
I strongly believe in aliens though (just by sheer statistics of probability of finding life elsewhere in the universe) ;)
 
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"do you believe in God?"
#7
Evolution is an impossibility. Pure and simple, there is absolutely no merit, evidence or possibility of evolution. If you have been lied to, it is about evolution. As far as God is concerned, certainly there is God. Not gods. Our whole universe points to a creator, not happenstance or chance. Chance is out, God is in. As far as religion, now that is another story. Religion, traditions and systems are man made. The bible account of creation is just that, an account. Not a story, not a made up system, just records. The bible is history, HIS story, Gods story of mankind. No inconsistency, no hiding facts. The fact that the bible tells us all of mans failings as well as success, give it credibility. Glad to have this discussion. GS
 
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"do you believe in God?"
#8
Originally posted by German Stallion
there is absolutely no merit, evidence or possibility of evolution.
Other than the vast worldwide fossil record.

I have several 350 million year old fossils sitting on my desk here in front of me. They are seashell like critters. My brother found them in northern Iowa. He's a fossil collector. Back then our area (Minnesota etc) was a shallow sea.

His friend found a T-Rex in South Dakota.

The evidence for evolution is everywhere. We even understand the DNA mechanism for coding morphological characteristics (shapes) of animals and how that coding can change across generations based on chance mutation and natural selection.

The Bible, on the other hand, was some ancient goat herders' attempts to explain what they didn't yet have the science to understand. It is little better than a child's rendition.

Oh, I'm an atheist, getting back to the original question.
 
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"do you believe in God?"
#9
Alrighty, personally I do not think there is an almighty God, or any other gods for that matter. Granted, one may exist, but I could really care less. I know I have this life, and if I have another one after I die (which I really doubt), then so be it.

I mean, seriously, why are human beings the only creatures on Earth to be judged on the lives they live? Is it due only to the fact that we have to pay for the "mistakes" that were made by two people way back when?

Wait a second, Adam and Eve were created not knowing right from wrong, so how could such a harsh punisHydromaxent be deserved for them? And why the hell do we all have to pay for it? I mean, I recall reading in the Bible that each man pays for his own sins, not for anybody elses, so why do we all get shafted for that?

Oh, sorry there, started going off on a rant...

Anyways, I don't see us as "special" because we supposedly have this thing called a "soul". The way I see it, I am an animal that lives and dies, end of story. I mean, why try to complicate matters to explain the fact that we are so "special" and evolved? I don't think there is a soul, but instead that the way we act is all due to our brains. I just know that man may be evolved, but he is still an animal, plain and simple.

Personally, I am fairly confident that evolution explains everything pretty well. If you think about it, evolution can all be derived from the repeating of algoritHydromaxic processes over and over and over again. AlgoritHydromaxs are processes that require no thought, and therefore don't need any kind of "superior" intervention. So basically, through algoritHydromaxic processes, something simple can make something complex. Yeah, it's still kind of hard to explain the "but how do you get somethng from nothing" phenomenon, but when it comes down to it, you reach the same problem when you try to explain God. Who created God? Maybe it was some other god, who was created by some other god? That can go on forever and ever.

So yes, I'm ranting again, but will continue with my train of thought...

Anyways, I think if you are to choose a God to believe in, you should believe in one that you are sure exists and who you can honor and respect. I mean, for all intents and purposes, I think I suit myself just fine as a god because there is no debate of my existence, and because I respect myself and what I represent. Anyways, I can't say the same for the popular God. I think he's a dickhead. He doesn't represent much of anything I look for in a human companion, and therefore, I see no need to respect Him. I mean, he loves me, yet he will be happy to see me fry if I don't believe in Him or if I betray Him. Thanks Dad, that's nice of you, and it's good see you need to have ego-driven power trips. And You also need prayer to fuller fulfill Your ego. Thanks Dickhead.

Anyways...

If there really is a God, I would like to think he's just like a scientist looking down at a slide through a microscope, observing all that is going on, rather than the popular notion of what God is.

And I also think that man invented God to explain what he didn't understand. And that was just fine and dandy back then. I think at some point the story got switched around and religion was born. Oh well, people can believe in what they want, but I believe in the absolute that is me, and in the flesh and blood of man, not in some guy in the sky that may or may not exist.

Anyways, sorry I went on forever, but it's my nature. :)
 
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#10
Hi Bob.....Fossil records, so called, are based on predetermined criteria....namely that they are millions of years old. The theory that things happen like they have for millions of years without a glitch does not wash. In fact, you can't have a fossil unless something catastrophic happened. Fossils are evidence of things not happening in the norm. So, that fossil from Iowa is evidence of something happening in that sea that once was in Iowa. But what caused it to become a fossil. If it died today, it would not become a fossil unless there was a catastrophe. And, evolution is predicated on something that was nothing becoming something and evolving over millions of years. Millions of years won't wash in our present rate of existence. The sun won't allow for millions of years, it is burning out at a rate that would not allow it to have been that far back. Proof again that the very balance of things in this earth are held in balance by a creator. Fossil records prove the existence of the whole realm of creatures existing together not separate. I live in a very well known fossil area. Interestingly the fossil record shows 90 million year old fossils from one period of so called time, being above some of 120 million year old so called...and it gets worse, things that didn't exist together in evolution are all being found together. Isn't that a hoot. No, guys, you can read all you want and listen to all the gibberish the evolutions throw at you and you con't have a leg to stand on...oh, and you have legs, Hydromaxmm, not fins...because you are made that way. You never had fins. There is no, absolutely no, evidence for the cross over and the missing link. Read men, read and weap at what you find. The evolution tries to prove his "theory" because he does not want to give accountability to his creator.

And, for the so called idea of God today. I weary too of the "religionists" view of God.

Now one more thing....whoever told you that the Bible was some sheep herders rendition or whatever you called it, is stupid. The bible is without a doubt one of the most accurate and attested truths of our day. When it speaks, whatever it speaks about it is accurate. You could not reproduce it if you tried.

WE have all over the years been brainwashed to believe in Evolution and not in a creator. Well, if there was any facts, we could accept it, but there are none. Scientists by the hundreds and thousands are turning from evolution to creation.

A man convinced against his will is of the same mind still. If you really want to know, and have an open mind, there is evidence to prove that creation is truth. However if you don't then no amount of my discussion of the subject will change your mind. I do agree and take what is being said about God as valid. We have a wrong concept of God and our concept is that He is against us, when that is not at all true. I must go back to answer another message and continue this discussion. GS
 
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"do you believe in God?"
#11
Hello to you dyslexic_smile....I don't take any arguement with you, but I do think that your concept of God is warped. I agree that the popular concept of God is in error. It is not hard to answer you questions....Adam and Eve for instance were created but not with out a concept of right and wrong. They were given a choice and choices involve knowing right and wrong. We do reap what we sow and we reap according to what we decide. The result of what we do is not in anyway Gods fault. There are natural results of natural actions. If you plant corn, don't get mad at God when you get corn. If you plant something you will get in like kind. Sowing kindness reaps kindness and that is the natural order of things.

As far as frying....and being forced to love or hate God. When you know the true God and who He is and his great love, then your concept of Him changes and your concept of man changes too. This is not a forum to make us change our mind or "convert" to one position or another, but I am glad to at least say a few words in support of really knowing the true God and not some man made concept or religious concept that many have of God. I respect each of your views and while I might not agree, I would like to challenge you to view the other side of the coin you are showing. Thanks for listening. GS
 
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"do you believe in God?"
#12
I promised myself I wouldn't post for a while so I wouldn't get dostracted from my routine, but I couldn't help chiming in . . .

Being raised Jewish it always freaked me out when I was little that all the Christian kids around believed in a religion that essentially said I was wicked in some way for not accepting Christ, which led me to wonder what they they thought of the other 5 billion or so people walking around the planet that aren't Christians . . .

So I stopped believing in any kind of religion a long time ago. All religious belief is a construct of society, and there have been thousands and thousands of religions, and there continues to be as well. It was our evolved ability to entertain abstract thought that got us religion, and it is so deeply rooted in the fundemental human perspective that I would say it will be maybe 1000's of years, if ever, that it is no longer viewed as being absolutely necessary to some degree by a general populace.

That being said, religion is worth studying in order to understand the modern world. It's influence is so vast and ingrained that without a knowledge and appreciation of the methods of religious though I feel no education is whole. Religion served as the catylist that forged at least western civilzation and was essentially the cause and benefactor of all knowledge and human pursuits for many years. It's had to let go in a very begrudging fashion to science and reasoning over the years (making a claim that was somehow conflictory with whatever the catholic church thought that decade not a wise move until the last few centuries.)

Anyway, I believe that a perspective free from religious dogma is infinately more appealing. The idea of a universe I can't understand but have the human potential to try and reason out sounds a lot better then being indoctrinated into a system of belief that only has credibility in that a lot of people swear it's true. That's not to say any religion is wrong, hey, somebody could well be right. And thats good news for them and shitty news for the thousands of other religions who missed the bus. I don't like the idea of a god or gods holding sway over me, judging me on some system of morality or conduct that sounds an awful lot like it was made up by early civilizations trying to put together some rules for society. I don't fear a god, nor do I think I'll be meeting one, or anybody else for that matter, after I die.

If you take this perspective, then you can do the most wonderful thing . . . make all your own decisions. Having a mind is the most incredible and amazing opportunity (edges out having a penis ever so slightly) . . . free from religious constraint or anything else of that nature, you are an independent mind, you are a free person, you can think and learn and change as you see fit, and fear plays no role for you. Understading the world through rationality and reasoning is an inate ability, and when you hand your life over to a gigantic cult of belief, then you forfeit your true potential. Maybe it is just as much of a leap of faith to believe in no religion some of you might say . . . and that is absolutely correct. But when I reject religion, I believe in something else, myself, and that is the only thing in my life that I will ever be able to say with total assurance is real. Our old friend Decartes said "Cogito Ergo Sum" - "I think Therefore I am" The clergy were not happy with him, I wonder why . . .
 
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"do you believe in God?"
#14
I'm not at liberty to say whether I do or don't believe. I'm still questioning, as I believe everyone should always be questioning.

However, I will say this...there is no such thing as fate. The idea that someone/something else is control of MY life doesn't sit too well with me. I refuse to believe that there is some predetermined pathway that's already been paved for me in which all of the choices I'm faced with have already been decided well in advance. If that's the case, than what joy is there to derive out of living a life that isn't truly yours?
 
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"do you believe in God?"
#15
Originally posted by German Stallion
Hi Bob.....Fossil records, so called, are based on predetermined criteria....namely that they are millions of years old. The theory that things happen like they have for millions of years without a glitch does not wash. In fact, you can't have a fossil unless something catastrophic happened. Fossils are evidence of things not happening in the norm. So, that fossil from Iowa is evidence of something happening in that sea that once was in Iowa. But what caused it to become a fossil. If it died today, it would not become a fossil unless there was a catastrophe. And, evolution is predicated on something that was nothing becoming something and evolving over millions of years. Millions of years won't wash in our present rate of existence. The sun won't allow for millions of years, it is burning out at a rate that would not allow it to have been that far back. Proof again that the very balance of things in this earth are held in balance by a creator. Fossil records prove the existence of the whole realm of creatures existing together not separate. I live in a very well known fossil area. Interestingly the fossil record shows 90 million year old fossils from one period of so called time, being above some of 120 million year old so called...and it gets worse, things that didn't exist together in evolution are all being found together. Isn't that a hoot. No, guys, you can read all you want and listen to all the gibberish the evolutions throw at you and you con't have a leg to stand on...oh, and you have legs, Hydromaxmm, not fins...because you are made that way. You never had fins. There is no, absolutely no, evidence for the cross over and the missing link. Read men, read and weap at what you find. The evolution tries to prove his "theory" because he does not want to give accountability to his creator.

And, for the so called idea of God today. I weary too of the "religionists" view of God.

Now one more thing....whoever told you that the Bible was some sheep herders rendition or whatever you called it, is stupid. The bible is without a doubt one of the most accurate and attested truths of our day. When it speaks, whatever it speaks about it is accurate. You could not reproduce it if you tried.

WE have all over the years been brainwashed to believe in Evolution and not in a creator. Well, if there was any facts, we could accept it, but there are none. Scientists by the hundreds and thousands are turning from evolution to creation.

A man convinced against his will is of the same mind still. If you really want to know, and have an open mind, there is evidence to prove that creation is truth. However if you don't then no amount of my discussion of the subject will change your mind. I do agree and take what is being said about God as valid. We have a wrong concept of God and our concept is that He is against us, when that is not at all true. I must go back to answer another message and continue this discussion. GS
can you please repeat what you said about fossils? fossils occur because something is out of the norm? what the fuck are you on about? do you even know how fossils are made?

and also, wtf are you talking about with evidence of fins? you do realise that we share an embryonic phase with fish where GILLS are fucking visible on our body? i bet you didn't know that did you?
please, before trying to make an arguement, actually know what you are talking about, because you are making an ass out of yourself talking about things that are completely wrong.

fossilisation is a process where the soft matter of a body decays, and substances fill the bones. then the bones deteriorate leaving behind shapes that look like bones and are accurate representations of what an organism looked like. fossils have SWEET FUCK ALL to do with catastrophes

-MBW
PS: thousands of scientists are joining creationism theory? what the fuck have you been smoking? there is absolutely NO PROOF of creationsm. ZIP, ZILCH. A turd smelling like strawberries is a more likely scenario than some being having waved his hands to make earth. I gotta say it, but you sir, are so full of shit.
 
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"do you believe in God?"
#16
i just want to make point quick before i ask you guys something else. When Chris Columbus sailed to America 200 years ago, everyone except a few seriously believed that the world is flat and that he would fall to ultimate death be falling off the face of the world. When we look back it was only 200 years ago, think about how much the world has developed between slavery, Apache helicopters, going to the moon, and Internet. I bet in the year 2203 people will look back and say wow i cant people believed in that kind of stuff.

but my real question is what would the world be like with no reiligon? I think it would be better because 9/11 would never of happened. Terrorism wound't exits. Al-Qaida would need a new reason to be crazy extremetist. Hitler wouldnt have a reason to blame it on the Jews because Judaism wouldnt exist. Does religion hurt more people than it saves? More people kill in the name of God than for any other reasons.
 
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"do you believe in God?"
#17
GS,

I have viewed the other side of the coin. I was raised (and confirmed) Catholic, but saw early on that it all appeared like a crock of shit. I read the Bible at more than once in completion (which I doubt more than 1% of xtians can say), and I read contradiction after contradiction. Granted, I think it's not supposed to be interpreted verbatim, but I think it's far and away from some kind of absolute truth. It was written with human hands "guided by God," so just that fact alone means it most likely doesn't contain absolute truth, since man is incapable of such things.

We were born to sin, so instead of turning it into a liability, I say turn it into an advantage. I'm not saying I condone running around killing people at random or anything, but I always treat people how they treat me. As for the whole, "kindness is returned with kindness deal", that isn't always true. Practically everyday I experience things contrary to this, in which people I am nice to end up screwing me over in one form or another simply because they can and because they don't care. And if they don't realize their fault, I won't forgive them, and the person becomes my enemy. I have no respect for assholes, and as such try not to associate with them. And I think if you just try to love everything, then the whole concept of what love is loses its intrinsic value. I love certain things and I hate certain things. Due to this, I believe I am capable of a purer love than those people who claim that they love everyone, their enemies included.

As for the Garden of Eden deal, I find that kind of amusing in and of itself. I mean, God LIES to Adam and Eve saying that they will die if they touch the Tree or eat the apple, yet the Devil tells the truth and says that they will not die, but will only learn right from wrong. I mean, what kind of shit is that? I guess maybe die has some metaphorical meaning there, but I really doubt it.

Now onto the fossil/sun thing...

I must agree with MBW with respect to fossils. Reminds me of a Bill Hicks' comedy bit where he talks about how he talked to a Fundamentalist Christian that said the world was 10,000 or 12,000 years old (I can't remember which). And then Bill said, "well how do you explain dinosaurs?" And the xtain replied that, "fossils were put in place by God to test our faith." And so Bill just mentioned to the audience how he found it disturbing that God was placing fossils all around Earth just to fuck with us and test our faith.

As for the sun burning out, come on now. Stars stay around for billions and billions of years. Well, at least that is what science (via radioactive dating) tells us. Science says that the Sun will burn about 10 million years, and the Earth has only been around for about 2 billion years. So, that's a lot of spare time to play with. Now, science could be completely wrong about this, I admit. But this finding only proves that evolution is plausible, if not a definite.

Evolution itself is an interesting thing, and besides Darwin, I think Daniel Dennett's book, "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" explains it best. I could go on and try to explain why the fish example doesn't hold water , but that'd take me quite a while to type out, and this ramble of mine is getting bad as it is. Oh yeah, and even the Pope said that evolution happens, except that it doesn't affect the human soul. I myself find that very interesting, even if I don't buy into that whole soul bit.

Anyways, I know nothing I can say can change your mind, and that really isn't my goal. I respect your views as I do most anybody elses. As long as you are true to what you believe, then that is most important to me. Nothing I can't stand more than a hypocrite. Anyways, just wanted to state my side...again. I realize I could write forever and this exchange of ideas could go on forever and ever, so I will stop here. It's interesting to hear others' views in any case and I'll always keep an open mind.

- DS
 
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"do you believe in God?"
#18
NeXus,

I'm glad you brought this up. I too do believe some day in the future, people will look back and wonder how people could believe in God (among other things). Kinda cool just to think about how much things change over time, and how many truths become falsehoods over the centuries.

Onto the religion question...

I can't say for certain that the world would be better without religion. I think to some extent that many people have a need for moral rules, as well as faith, so religon provides that.

Then again, in a lot of ways, I think the world would be nicer without religion. Lex Talionis (the law of the jungle) would prevail, and only the strong (physically/mentally) would survive. I personally think there are way too many people on this planet, and wish there weren't as many of us around. Granted, that would have effects that I wouldn't be able to anticipate, so who knows. Would the technology we have today exist? I don't know, maybe. Would I exist? Probably not. Everything that happens at one point in time affects practically everything else, so it's hard to say if the world would be better without religion.

One thing's for certain, the world would probably be better without the Holocaust or the Inquisition. And I agree that less lameass shit would happen without religion being around.

Also, I know that in the US and many other countries, religion is the foundation of the law systems, so I'm not sure how that'd all play out either. If everything was "eye for an eye," I think things would turn out just fine, but who knows. Society sure wouldn't be the same, that's for certain.

So yeah, my opinion is that the world would be better overall without religion, even if I would never had been born or the like. I doubt there would be mass hysteria and chaos without religion though, as many would speculate. People would just live their lives as they see fit and some kind of equilibrium would be established.

Well, that's my take, even if it seems to kind of go back and forth from one side to the other.

- DS
 
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#19
MightyBig....I don't mind answering your questions, but I don't need to be treated like I am stupid. I know where-of I speak. If you don't agree with me, that is your right and privilege, but please refrain from the name calling.

Obviously, I don't need to tell you this, but fossils occur when an animal, fish, snail or whatever is covered and rather than decay and rot or get destroyed, or eaten by predators or scavengers as in natural occurrences, this living creature is covered and sealed so that over time the soft tissues well as the bones etc. are replaced by rock. Most of the time, these living creatures are entombed in the sedimentary layers, often because of a catastrophe or something that caused them to be sealed rather than decay or be destroyed as above. We recently have discovered about three miles from where I live, 26 difference type dinosaurs in a 100 foot radius. Some of these have previously believed not to have lived together, but here they are, all in one spot. Without question something of an un-natural occurrence put them in this place, sealed them up. We live in an area where deep beds of coal are mined. Sometimes a whole tree is "fossilized in the coal bed." The tree is complete, limbs, trunk, branches, leaves etc. It is all, now, totally coal. But, how did this happen. It happened because something caused it to be buried, and pressure was applied and presto? We assume that it took millions of years; but did it?

What have I been reading. Do you really want to know? I doubt it so I won't bore you with the literature that is available presenting the "other side."

Forgive me if I have offended you. I have post graduate work in all these areas but have obviously chosen to view many sides and see a different view than you. GS
 
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#20
ah yes. so you would call a land slide an unatural occurance? a flood is unatural? volcanic eruptions? they certainly aren't out of the norm. thousands of eruptions, land slides and floods occur each year. they just show how fragile the world is. don't know where you are getting at, but your whole fossil arguement is flawed.

also, just to add onto the discussion about why we don't have fins. because mammals are believed to have originated from little possum-like creatures. of course all life originated in the water , but thats where evolution/natural selection comes into place. These small possum creatures have developed into bigger creatures, then monkeys, apes, and finally humans. hence we have that bone in our asses (damn, forgot what its called), that can often give us troubles.
And in regards to your comments of the fins. did you know that horses have small finger like structures in the lower portions of their legs? why would god put that there, especially when some horses can suffer serious movement problems. horses have evolved, and are walking on their middle fingers, which provides a constant speed of movement. you have wild cats (like leopards) who can run a lot faster, but don't have the same stamina. How do you explain neanderthals? Homo hobilis? Homo erectus? Why do these creatures bear such a resemblance to humans yet don't exist anymore? unless this all falls under the concept of "god having placed fossils on earth to test the faith of humans".

-MBW
PS: sorry for having been a bit offensive.
 

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