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"Confederate flag racist?"
#1
Since some people were talking about race I was wondering what everyones opinion was on the issue of the Confederate flag. Im only asking because its seems to be a good controversial thread and with Dem. Howard Dean getting grilled for saying he wants the votes of young white males who drive pickups and wave the confederate flag.

Should we still fly it and should it be allowed on state flags like Mississippi?

Is it a matter or race or history?

Is Howard Dean stereotyping Southerners or not?

I dont get why I always see people waving the Confederate flag like its a peace symbol or something. Now I live in the MidWest so I dont live in the South. But I have family in Missouri and when I go down there I always see people with the Confederate flag plastered on their clothes, cars, and homes. I even went to an anti-war protest in my home town and I saw 4 kids in a pick-up driving and waving the flag as the protesters marched to the capitol. I went to this guys house to buy pot, and there was a huge confederate flag that took up his whole wall. Why are people trying to embace this awful time in American history?
 

Godsize

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"Confederate flag racist?"
#2
Well, they like to say "Heritage Not Hatred"...but when you think about it...the South's heritage IS hatred, so it makes no sense.

I immediately think "redneck" when I see a Confederate flag. I mean, the Confederates LOST. Perhaps it's the only bit of "white pride" that is left in this country, but when I see these people, I notice that they are no better than the "coloreds" they make themselves seem superior to.

Notice you are not allowed to be white in America anymore... so if people wanna cling to whatever's left of their heritage and culture, then let 'em. Isn't that what America is? Everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

I was born and raised in New York, so what do I know?
 

kay

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"Confederate flag racist?"
#3
Yeah, well I was raised in Alabama and Georgia. I absolutely hate seeing these bigots waving the flag and claiming it's "heritage." Besides the fact that the heritage is full of hate, why fly something that causes bad feelings and then tell them that their feelings are petty?
 

bigbutnottoo

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"Confederate flag racist?"
#4
All I can say is this:

I am from the Mid-Atlantic, a border line state. I can't speak on the south, but when people here fly the flag or put it on their truck ( and they have never been south of the chesapeake Bay): It is almost always a blatant racist statement and is used for that expressed purpose.



As far as the south, as I said, I can't really say. One thing though, there are many blacks in the south who are "Southerners" too. And believe it or not, many black people support the Confederate flag.
 

Godsize

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"Confederate flag racist?"
#5
Actually, even if they wanted to fly a giant swastika flag they should be allowed. You should be entitled to whatever expression you want to make. Flags and symbols are just that, flags and symbols. Big deal.
No one would have a problem with someone flying a "Black Power" flag, so why the double standard? And if someone did have a problem with it, THEY'D be called racist. Now that's a mellon scratcher.
 
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"Confederate flag racist?"
#6
Having debated many neo-confederates, it's not clear what component of their rants are motivated by racism. But they all regard Lincoln as the aggressor and they contend that he violated the Constitution when he invaded the south.

They say he never intended to free the slaves, that he invented that later to justify his aggression.

They say the south didn't fight for slavery -- but for it's Constitutionally granted sovereignty. Some say that slavery had almost nothing to do with it -- that instead it was the north's attempt to tax the south which caused the war. They say slavery was about to die out anyhow, so the south wouldn't have bothered to fight for it -- or that if the south won the war, slavery would have gone away anyhow.

So the Confederate flag is their banner of pride in their fight against the imperialist north.

Of course all that is looney, since most of the articles of secession of those southern states have slavery as the number one thing they claim to be trying to defend. So the neo-confederates are never too good about reading their own history.
 

Godsize

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"Confederate flag racist?"
#7
I wish I knew more about history. It's pretty pathetic that I, as an American, cannot even name all of our Ammendments in our Constitution... but at least I can admit it. There are many people who will never say, "I don't know."

Didn't Lincoln "free" the slaves only because he needed troops for the Civil War? Or did I just dream that?
 

bigbutnottoo

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"Confederate flag racist?"
#8
Originally posted by Godsize
I wish I knew more about history. It's pretty pathetic that I, as an American, cannot even name all of our Ammendments in our Constitution...
It may be pathetic, but there is nothing wrong or dangerous about it.

What is wrong and dangerous is our elected officials who either do not know, or explicitly know and blatantly violate the Constitution. I kid you not at least 95% of elected officials knowingly commit treason against the citizens of the USA.
 
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"Confederate flag racist?"
#9
i disagree

its probably like 96% Jk

Bush is notorious for being a f*ckin moron. Lets see, he was drunk until he was forty. He then ironically got into a drunk drivin accident and hit a bush. He snorted cocaine. Then he was accecpted to Harvard, I think, dispite the fact that he was not academically qualified to get in. He was a drunken frat boy who got straigt C's because he didnt even actually get graded, just awarded a Degree of Business from Harvard. Then got his daddy to get him in the Air Force so he wouldnt be drafted into Vietnam, which he then went AWOL for a f*ckin year! And this is the man who is responsible for health care and education and national security? Dont tell me there isnt someone more qualified.
 

REDZULU2003

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"Confederate flag racist?"
#10
To me its just a flag...it means nuthing.
Peeps need to just ignore it.

In Ireland...well parts of it, theirs still STRONG hate towards the Englsih cos we beat them like in the 1500's...500 years ago and took over Northern Ireland and still have it...as a result groups are set up and bomb innocnet peeps in the UK....the IRA....they are quiet nowadays.

Also a group called the Orange men march in the damn streets of ireland causing hate and panic with other groups...reason they called orange men is they dress in orange...why? cos the guy the Englsih beat was William of Orange....this is PATHETIC innit??? peeps need to move on.

The English will NEVER give the North back....its ours just like nearly the whole world was at one time...we were the ultimate conquerors along with the Spanish...who we also beat in the Spanish Armada.

Anyways just ignore the flag...I see no racism innit...these peeps just want to show-off their heritage and pride of the USA.

Lets face it Black peeps dont originate from the USA...they came from Africa by the slave ships to work here.
I aint racist at all....just making a point that it wasnt a Black country to start with.
 
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"Confederate flag racist?"
#11
America seems to be a pretty hatering country in my eyes.

My question is, why the fuck are some White Americans Nazi's?
Its patetic... US fighted againt hitler for got sakes. Hitler wouldnt have let those americans live, he put does suckas into chambers.
Hitler wanted a special type of Human to build up Germany.
Blue Eyed, blond hair and of German deccent, Arye.

I think does fools need some serious thinking... They're so braindwashed there isnt a name for such fucked-up-ness!

What do you really win on hating people who looks different?

Let the nazis take some pills ,like a dude did in the 70's i think, so the skin gets black under the time you take em. And place them in the ghetto... Then they'll see life isnt a fairytail.
And they should be realizing they did wrong hating.

Just get those motherfucking faggot ass suckas who Preduce about the Aryan is the Ultimate human, outta the world. SO all the men will realize one thing and another.

We have nazi's over here too, but they aint many, and when they spotted, everybody will beat the shit outta em. Here nobody likes them.
 
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"Confederate flag racist?"
#12
the objection to the confederate banner stems fromt the fact that it represents pride in the confederacy, which was to be an agrarian nation whose economic backbone would be slave labor. the loss of slavery would have been economically devestating to the landed southern elite. while it is true there were other factors surrounding the civil war, the revisionist premise that slavery was only a secondary issue in the civil war is flawed for reasons to numerous to start breaking down here.

people don't object to the existense of the flag, but rather it's use as a state symbol. no groups are trying to outlaw the flag, that is ridiculous. they just don't want a symbol of a society that was built on a foundation of african american slavery to be included as part of state arms, which they feel is offensive and degrading. southern pride is one thing, but celebrating an era when other human beings were owned as property is repulsive. the flag, unfortunately, has a dual nature, representing different things to different people, which creates the debate.

i personally feel that it is very important to reject any symbols connected with racist attitudes. racism still exists and is a very real force. until true equality has been achieved through and throughout, things like embracing the stars and bars serve no beneficiary purpose. i realize the double standard mentioned by godsize is bothersome to many people, but i feel that an attitude of "why can'ti be pro white?" is a dangerous step.

there is no real need to be pro white; white people are not particualrly oppressed and have no need to organize in order to defend their civil liberties, combat social prejudice and work towards erasing economic barriers. being white in american society places you at no significant disadvantage, being an ethnic minority does. when we adopt attitudes that lash out towards minority movements for defending their interests, it's just a few clicks away from justifying racist attitudes. hate movements and such always get fueled from social outrage by a disenfranchised portion of the population angered by some degree of economic or social hardship, who then end up searching for an outlet for their anger (minorities).

the confederate flag is really an irrelevent symbol. it is part of a tremendously important historical event, but in the end it's legacy is only a) oppression and slavery and b) the most gruesome and devestating war in american history. although not a native southerner, if i wanted to show my southern pride, i would fly the american flag. it represents the southern states as it does all others.
 
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"Confederate flag racist?"
#13
Originally posted by GhosT_DoGG
America seems to be a pretty hatering country in my eyes.
Well, as long as you close those eyes to Europe's notorious levels of anti-semitism. It wasn't just the Nazis or the Germans who were/are anti-semitic.
 

Godsize

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"Confederate flag racist?"
#14
It's funny how anti-semitism is looked upon as a haenous crime... and all ya gotta do is disagree with a Jew to be accused of it, you don't have to be a card-carrying Nazi.

Skinheads are the dumbest bunch of shitheads I've ever encountered. And their music sucks. They represent all that is wrong with being White....superior my balls.

Skinhead or not, you're not allowed to be white and proud in America without accused of being racist. Because of course, it was white people who invented racism...*scoff* Gimmie a F'n break. People always liked being around "their own kind" since the beginning of time. And everybody thinks their group is better and blah blah blah. If anybody should be accused of "racism" it should be ...gasp... Jews. They don't care for anyone unless they are Jewish themselves. I don't mean to start a mini race war in here, but I know from real life experience. Yet they never get accused of predjudice. In fact, to accuse them of such would be, you guessed it, anti-semetic!

I refuse to bear the cross of "white guilt". Oh yeah, I forgot that since I was born white, the world is just handed over to me. As if.

Quick anecdote for ya. A friend of mine went to prison a while back. He's white. While locked up, he was given the opportunity to take tests for decent jobs upon his release. In the questionairre, he was asked his race...as a goof, he put down that he was black.... he scored a hundred and five. So you basically get an extra five points just for being black. I don't know if that has any relevence to this thread...just thought I'd throw that in. When the moderators saw him and noticed that he was indeed white...they gave him the job to avoid being accused of predjudice. He caught 'em with that lil' curveball.

Just 'cause you're white don't mean you automatically get a great life. Life is what you make it.
 
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"Confederate flag racist?"
#15
Originally posted by NeXus
Then got his daddy to get him in the Air Force
Wasn't it the Air National Guard?

Anyway, I like Bush. And the President too.

As for the stars and bars... I'm a Texan (bet you never woulda guessed), and the flag does not mean anything close to racism to me. I am fairly conservative on some issues and more liberal on others. I am not for a big national government; the flag to me is all about states' rights. As a Texan, I think we can best say how our state should be run (on most things, not all), and we do not need some politician in DC telling us how we can irrigate our fields or some senator from California telling us how we can pull our horse/cattle trailers just as well with an electric powered Echo. Same as people in Vermont do not need Texans telling them gays can't marry. (obviously I'm generalizing some).

I know I will probably get a few people here who think I am a redneck, but I assure you I'm not. I was just as shocked at "Deliverance" as you and Ned Beatty.

It's just my opinion that there should remain some autonomy and sovereignty to the states. I have a G. Harvey print of "Jackson's Winter Campaign" above my fireplace, and it features the flag. I hope my friends do not automatically label me a racist because of it. I really could not care less what ethnicity a person is.

I think too many people think they "know" what the Stars and Bars stands for (there were five Confederate flags I believe, example: http://rebelstuff.com/confedimages/frstnat2stkr.jpg ). To some people it does mean they don't like minorities, but that's not really what it means to most of us. So please don't say that everyone who displays the flag is a racist, because it simply isn't true.
 
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"Confederate flag racist?"
#16
tex - i don't think anybody said that displaying the flag is inherently racist. i agree with what you have to say about states rights though. the evolution of government has pretty much bowled over the concept of true federalism and it's a shame.

godsize - i'm jewish, i'm pretty sure that i like and care about all the people i know who aren't jewish, which is about 95%. my parents are even the insular "new yawk" variety of jews i assume you are most familiar with, and i can say the same for them. i was suprised to read your comments about jewish people, honestly. i don't make a habit of going around and accusing people of anti-semitism, and i hear plenty of shit because most people have no idea i'm jewish. but um, broad sweeping generalizations about jews only caring for themselves, well man, thats just pretty fucking close isn't it? how is it funny that it is looked upon as bad to be anti-semitic? yeah, never mind, now that i think about discriminating against jewish people is pretty cool, like how some people in my dad's family were gassed to death and stuff! yeah, forget i even mentioned it, sheesh.

you don't like jewish people (obviously) then just say so, i can respect that. don't make up some limp-dicked excuse why it's supposedly okay to not like them i.e. we only worry about each other and label anybody that disagrees with us about anything as anti-semitic. that's just stupid, and cowardly.
 
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"Confederate flag racist?"
#17
Originally posted by Texan
Wasn't it the Air National Guard?

Anyway, I like Bush. And the President too.
Maybe it was the Guard. But nevertheless the point remains the same. What did you mean above? Do you mean that Bush shouldnt really be the President because Republicans stole the 2000 election in Florida? If so I completely agree.

If not, and you indeed like Gov. Bush, what the hell do you like about him? Besides the fact that hes a Texan. And not even a real Texan. Did you see him on the ranch in Texas posing for pics with the pickup truck and the bales of hay? When I saw that I wanted to slap him. Im so sick of his lame-ass publicity stunts like landing with a real fighter pilot on the air craft carrier with a big banner that reads "Mission Accomplished" and his crotch stuffed with Kleenex and buldging out. What a fuckin joke.

oh yea the flag is a racist symbol end of story. The flag represents the Confederacy, which stood against abolishing black slavery. I have German blood in me. Does that mean its okay to fly the swastika and say that I'm just embracing my roots? Should I read Mein Kampf and say Im just reading up on some old German literature?
 

Godsize

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"Confederate flag racist?"
#18
When did I ever say it was okay or "cool" to not like Jews? Perhaps I should have been a bit more clear... when I speak of "Jews" I'm talking about orthodox Jews. Are you orthodox? If you are not, then the hardcore orthodox wouldn't even consider YOU to be one of them, although you'd still gain acceptance over someone like me, a "gentile", or more accurately: a "goyem" (correct me if I misspelled that... it's a Jewish term for non-Jews which is derrogatory). You see, it's perfectly okay for the orthodox to practice segregation...but if anyone else does it, well you know the rest.

There ain't nothin' "limp-dicked" about any "excuse" I make, bro... I've spent quite a bit of time in the Orthodox Jewish community, and let me tell you... I wasn't welcome. And don't you come at me with some limp-dicked excuse as to why I wasn't welcome i.e. I was walkin' the streets shouting anti-semitic obscenties, staring at them with disdain or some bullshit like that. I don't do that sort of shit.

Being labeled an "anti-semite" is just that: a label. It's a political tool to automatically write someone off if they disagree with the orthodox community. Is being an anti-semite bad? That depends on just how ANTI someone is. Did I, or anyone in relation to me gas anyone in your family? No. Do I go around defacing Jewish places of worship? No. I'll be labelled as anti usually if I have a contrary opinion or some stupid bullshit like that. Most of the time if I'm accused of being an anti-semite for an opinion I have, then I know I'm moving in the right direction.

I never said I hated anyone, so stop trying to twist shit. I don't fabricate stories either... all my anecdotes are true life shit.

Obviously, anything more I say about this matter will just get me hostility from everyone here...whether they're Jewish themselves, or just plain PC. So this is all I'm saying. Don't expect any further replies.
 
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"Confederate flag racist?"
#19
. . . It's funny how anti-semitism is looked upon as a haenous crime... and all ya gotta do is disagree with a Jew to be accused of it, you don't have to be a card-carrying Nazi.

. . . If anybody should be accused of "racism" it should be ...gasp... Jews. They don't care for anyone unless they are Jewish themselves.

one thing: an anecdote is a personal experience by nature, not something you draw broad conclusions about entire groups of people from.

another thing: i think anti-semitism is haenous, i think being anti-anbody because of their religion or ethnicity is fucked up.

i'm sick of your whiny horseshit about "white guilt" and the horrible burden of how it's not fair somebody might call you a racist for harboring, what, pro-white (what the fuck is that exactly?) feelings of more commonly for you, anti-minority feelings. the more you write the more it seems you just want to justify whatever latent or perhaps obvious bigotries you're carrying around, and you look for any angle to justify your feelings. you're allowed to be white in america, i anybody bombing your church? you not able to get a cab lately? oh you're mad because you can't express white pride? and who expresses white pride exactly, or why would they need to? can't form a pro-white group? what would that goupd do anyways buddy, been having a whole shitload of problems lately because you're white?

you said some nasty things about jews, in general. and theres orthodox people in my family as well, and i'm pretty sure they aren't in on this big jewish conspiracy that you seem to feel victimized by. and what's the difference? i have a jewish name, a jewish family, i'm a jew. "oh no, i only don't like the orthodox jews . . ." give me a fuckin break, limp-dick. you're just another angy, disenfranchised whitebread dipshit who isn't happy so you blame it on whatever you can find around you, jew, blacks, whatever, they're all screwing you over right? and don't forget, you're a coward too. you make excuses for all your bullshit at a thousand miles an hour, even on an internet forum where you have no possibility of getting your ass kicked. nothing like a limp-dicked coward, they're about as rare as wicked racist orthodox jews are common, right?

oh yeah, and i wouldn't say it's a far stretch to say you hate women in some capacity too. a quick read up on your postts will reveal a general trend of verbal degredation to females in general.

but hey man, to be honest, i think it's a possibility that your bigotry is so ingrained you don't even realize it's there, and you cling to all these sniveling little "it's not fair" arguments you love so much to justify your feelings to yourself, not the people you seem so paranoid of being accosted by ( besides me). you're afraid of your own feelings, because deep down you know they're wrong on some level. that doesn't mean you're not a limp-dicked coward, it just means you're a confused insecure limp-dicked coward.

why don't you spend some time reading and tugging on your dick and quit trying to think up ways to justify your dislikes of certain people. i said it before, you don't like somebody, just say it, don't be such a pussy. if you tell a black guy you don't like hanging out with black people, he'll probably understand. if you stammer some stupid bullshit about how it's not fair that his kid might get a better shot at college because of affirmative action, or you should be allowed to form a NAAWP because black people have their own civil liberites defense group, he'll either 1)shake his head and walk away wondering how people like you still exist or 2)give you a copious ass-kicking that would just add to your thriving list of excuses.
 
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"Confederate flag racist?"
#20
Originally posted by NeXus
oh yea the flag is a racist symbol end of story. The flag represents the Confederacy, which stood against abolishing black slavery.
I guess you know it all then. Come on, the fact that the South supported slavery doesn't mean it was racist! Think man...WHY did the South support slavery? Because slavery supported the South...economically. Slave owners would take a white slave just as fast as black slave. And often did. Why did blacks as well as whites own slaves? It wasn't because they were racist against other blacks. Do not read this to think I support slavery in any form. I don't.

The Confederacy does not equal racism.
The flag does not equal racism.
Slavery does equal racism.

Are there Southern (and northern) racists who sport the flag because they are ignorant? Yes, without a doubt.

I have no idea where you are the midwest, but evidently you have learned a lot more about the south than the people who actually live here. To YOU the flag is a symbol of racism... to some the rainbow is the symbol for homosexuality, but to people who actually live in Hawaii and/or attended the U of Hawaii it doesn't mean that.

All I'm saying is don't judge everyone on your preconceived notions. I mean would you want everybody else in the world thinking you like Bush just because you're American?

I love it when people think Southerners are so stupid that we need you to tell us what our heritage is and what the symbols of our heritage really stand for. I mean really, what do we know...it's just our great-great grand fathers who fought and died... it's a shame you weren't around to tell them that it was because they were racists. The north turned it into a race issue, and people like you are still buying into that today.
 

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